our sedia from wulli was able to win three elections due to the effectiveness of youth civic education. the aprc regime split up wulli but the area that sedia choose to contest for where well aware of the tricks of aprc ,the youths stood firm and fullfil their commitment to vote pdios .civic education can work if properly delivered.
Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Suntou:
Many thanks for elucidating your understanding of religion and how it may legitimately interface with public life.
I respect those views and do not wish to cause further annoyance by pursuing a discussion not amenable to conclusive settlement.
LJDarbo
SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:
Brother lamin ,ahjarama mowdo .to start with ,i will say the topic at hand is why pdois is still misunderstood after more than a decade of being in existence ? this is the topic ,but every THING been equal you masterfully claim that i am a religious zealot .i will want you to explain to me what a zealot means in terms of religion .
i don't hide my feelings to any one in terms of my love for Islam and its benefit to humanity .i will never under any circumstance claim to wish a non-beleiver ruling over me .
i will use the much use terminology by Gay right campaigners ,which ,i can tolerate a non-beleiver but i cannot accept them as equal to a believer .Gays want straight people to take them as equals and accept them ,but there is an ocean of difference between tolerating and accepting some one .
i believe 100% in the teachings of Islam and in that vain ,the highest constitution and rule book of all Muslims across the universe clearly states that '' a believer and unbeliever cannot be equal'' in the eye of our maker ,so i take that line.
in terms of secular democracy and politics ,yes every Gambian regardless of the person's faith can aspire to become the head of state ,that is his/her constitutional right. i cannot object to that ,but my personal choice will of course be a believer rule me rather than an unbeliever .this is a sensitive area so i will leave it to that .
if today we choose to take religion as a private matter ,and we take politics as a communal matter ,aren't we being hypocritical here fellas .from the most advance nations on earth to the very less developed country ,politicians use religion as tool to both win votes and as a guide to decide moral issues for them.so if any one claim ,i don't take religion seriously ,i suntou will not believe you .
as human beings we judge each other base of some set rules and bench marks .from journalist to lawyers ,judges,heads of states ,bankers,police officers,military officers,ministers,councillors etc .what do we use to judge them or held them to account ?
this measures whatever they may be are different to different people .for example ,i see many journalist brothers here lambasting the mode of freedom news papers reporting ,what tool do they use to know that ,that paper is towing the line ?
again many of us take issue with our head of state regularly as a result of the ways he treat our fellow citizens ,we call him names .what measures are we using again to held him to account ?
i can go on and on about us exposing the faults of others .what i am trying to explain is this ,each and every profession has its own set rules and guide line ,if any one within that profession or trade violate that rules and regulations he/she is brought to task .the noble thing for every profession is for there to be rules and fundamental set principles that individuals most follow.
these fundamental principles will be use as checks and balances for the different layers of employees and staff .we can for example say ,that the daily observer news paper is bias ,why and how can we tell ? well ,we have brothers in the news business ,they are experts in the field and for that matter they tell us ,you see that paper is not reporting accurate news ,and we the readers can either believe or disbelieve in the judgement .
again we can tell if our president is corrupt ,how is this so ,well we have brothers and sisters in politics and we also have journalist that can unearth for us the life style of our leader ,with this information's ,we can soundly say our leader is living out of his means .he is corrupt.
these are all possible because there are fundamental principles that are in place and any violation to those principles will lead to prosecutions.
similarly ,religion whatever religion that may be have its own fundamental principles ,if one continue to make judgement outside those fundamental rules ,you are counting yourself out that religion. as they say ignorant of the law is not an excuse .
that also bring me to ask my journalist brothers and sister here , WHEN CAN A NEWS PAPER BE LIABLE FOR A CONTEMPT OF COURT ? i am currently reading a book dealing with bungles in the media business .
haruna thanks for the golf news .yeah i mean soccer .i hate that word.
Lamin Darbo wrote:
Haruna:
I guess a formal welcome to GAMBIA-L is in order.
You do have a pretty unique conversational style, and I must admit your pieces have the capacity to both amuse and educate. And so I'm glad to be reading you on GAMBIA-L.
Clearly, your complaints about PDOIS are not practically addressable, and having witnessed prior performances of yours on the matter, it appears that your views are set in stone. Under the circumstances, it is probably prudent to decline the invitation to convince you about PDOIS.
I am happy to have persuaded Malanding despite your belated attempt to muddy the waters. And neither Suntou, nor myself, considers PDOIS as a communist outfit. There appears to be some religious zealotry in Suntou if his recent postings on Ahmadiyya's are anything to go by. In light of the monumental task facing us as a nation, what with the illegal arrests, detentions, torture, and unexplained disappearances and deaths, I am not the least concerned about which religion a fellow Gambian affiliates with. I am happy to have a nonbeliever for President if the person is committed to the rule of law.
I should content myself by informing you that PDOIS is not only the oldest functional party in Gambia, but also the only party whose leadership are invited to share their views about politics with fellow citizens. In a two-way free and fair electoral contest under a governance system grounded in the rule of law, PDOIS of today has the ability to defeat the APRC nationally. The dominance of the PPP, and now the APRC, has more to do with their corrupt governance and lawless elections than acceptance by the people, and with your acumen, I thought appreciating this would be obvious.
As you have clearly made up your mind, I do not think you are realistically open to persuasion about PDOIS obvious merits.
LJDarbo
Haruna Darbo wrote:
Lamin,
How are you? I am glad you are here for I enjoy your company and indeed hold
you in high esteem. On rare occasions, your emotions overwhelm your
intellect and an opportunity arises for us to share differing views. This is such an
occasion.
"Malanding: Remember Saints in the mid- to late-70s? When other members of
your class, including myself, were struggling with ordinary maths, a select
group of you were grappling with the stupefying concepts of Additional
Mathematics under the tutelage of Father Flynn. If not him, then Father somebody, but
I think it was Father Flynn. After Saints, I stayed away from the
mathematical sciences and wouldn't know how to tackle metric concepts especially in
relation to socio-political questions." JDAM
Thanx for the reminiscence, I think it was father Flynn. I remmember him
fondly. It is however unfortunate Lamin for an honourable citizen like yourself
to not appreciate the value of metrics or the actuarial sciences especially
in juridical decision-making. I know you're probably joking but our friend
Malandikukeh asked a very significant question that stood to accrue enormous
value for PDOIS were you to have taken it seriously. Consider that by metrics he
meant yardstick as opposed to derivatives, limits and continuity. The
problem you have created for yourself is that you have used voluminous metrics and
actuarial considerations in your juridical decisions, and more importantly in
assessing the worth or lack thereof, of Jawara's thirty some odd years of
leadership to conclude that it was devoid of any meaningful achievement. You
also obviously must have considered metrics in certifying the ordainment of the
1994 coup and in assessing the worth or value of Yahya's leadership in
comparison to a potential PDOIS leadership. I find it disingenuous (for want of
more benign adjective) therefore to retire ever so discretely from an
assessment of PDOIS' worth or lack thereof spanning both the PPP and Yahya. I was so
looking forward to a stellar performance and possibly earning PDOIS new
converts. I share that simple statistics such as mean mode and median would do the
trick. In fact, the use of add-math may further blur your analysis in this
area.
"Although another outsider, I am at least aware that through its principal
information organ - FOROYAA - PDOIS has contributed tremendously to awakening
and nurturing the political consciousness of Gambians."
I disagree with you here Lamin. As you intimated, Foroyaa is a PDOIS party
organ. All communist parties have party organs, and like Foroyaa, they help to
diseminate the message of the party to the citizenry. I regualrly receive a
newsletter from Siemens. The newsletter always teaches me about a new idea but
at the end, it shares that I can only yield value from the idea if I
purchased a Siemens component. So a party organ such as Foroyaa is a propaganda or
advertising organ and to keep your interest in reading it, they cut and paste
parts of the Gambia constitution to give the mirage of an educational paper.
Although I applaud PDOIS for the vision to establish a party paper. If you
say Foroyaa therefore has contributed tremendously in awakening and nurturing
the political consciousness of Gambians, you are inadvertently admitting that
that political consciousness was already present in Gambians prior to
Foroyaa. Since Foroyaa is, by your own admission, a party organ, I understand you to
share that PDOIS engages in intellectually engineering acceptance by
Gambians. Please convince me otherwise.
"It is my understanding that PDOIS has a multi-purpose centre for the
proliferation of education, especially in the socio-political area." JDAM.
Would you mind sharing with us the name and location of this centre? If it
is for the proliferation of education I would presume it is public, easily
accessible, and its value assessible.
"And the leadership are usually invited by youth-controlled community and
civic organisations to give speeches. I have a video of Halifa giving one such
speech at Tujereng in Kombo South." JDAM.
Lamin, I also can share that Halifa spoke to our Sixth form class at GHS
upon invitation, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. To this day however, I cannot
recall what he spoke about or what it had to do with our lives. One thing you may
want to share with PDOIS is that if over the last two decades, they have
given multitudes of speeches and churned out zillions of editions of Foroyaa but
are still in the political doldrums, it may be a good idea for them to invite
citizens to give speeches at their central bureau in order that they may
appreciate the value of what citizens have to say. I don't mean invite PDOIS
youth organs but ordinary voting citizens. It could prove useful. I'm usually
not in the business of advising political parties and certainly not PDOIS who
always know what I'm thinking or what I should think about.
"Outside party political functions, I do not recall the leadership of any
other political party being invited to share their socio-political views with
fellow Gambians." JDAM.
And look at their poll records at elections. Lamin, this ought to at least
inform a more inclusive strategy for PDOIS as opposed to rely on invitations to
speak.
"In my view, the reason may be attributable to the fact that in our pre- and
post-1994 systems, both the dominant parties have no sensible programmes to
sell to Gambians, and hence continue to exploit the easy option of steering
national life in darkness." JDAM.
You must admit Lamin that given their shortcomings in vision for Gambia,
Gambians desire them over PDOIS. Or maybe Gambians still haven't gotten PDOIS'
extraordinary and divine message for governance yet.
"To preempt a retort of why their relatively insignificant political
representation in government, I suggest you search for answers in the atrocious
unaccountable systems of PPP and APRC." JDAM.
Lamin, Men how can you ask Malandikukeh to search for records that are not
there (unaccountable systems). You did not pre-empt the retort of why their
relatively insignificant political representation in government. So I will ask
retort to you: Why PDOIS' lackluster (insignificant is too extreme for me)
performance at the polls over two decades at least?
"If you require quantification of the benefits of PDOIS "relentless
programme of political education and civic consciousness", I do not have the
mathematical wherewithal to do that," JDAM.
It would have been very easy to quantify or even qualify the value of PDOIS'
relentless programme of educational proliferation if it were there. Lamin,
what you confuse with education am afraid is ideological indoctrination under
the guise of philanthropic education. I'd like you to engage in a simple
poll. That may satisfy Kukeh's query:
Get a ballpark figure of Gambians PDOIS educated say last year and share
that with us.
Then share with us how many of those PDOIS-educated citizens are PDOIS
militants or party members or children of PDOIS party members and sympathisers.
I guess you know where I'm headed with this. I have some more detailed
questions if you'll indulge me. At the end, we will not only be able to quantify
but qualify the worth of a PDOIS Relentless CIVIC CONSCIOUSNESS exercise.
"but I take it the evidence is obvious in the number of other parties
obliterated from the national consciousness with the passage of time. The PPP
itself is one such victim, and the party was at the centre of national life for
three decades." JDAM.
It is terribly unfortunate and counterproductive for PDOIS to keep comparing
itself to PPP, a party you admit is as good as dead. If you wish to keep up
with growth and life in PDOIS, it may be time to compare it with living
organs and organisms. Ironic idn't it? Besides, you were all too happy to partner
with the PPP to form NADD just about a year ago Lamin. One exercise that may
give you a yardstick is to compare the health of PDOIS under PPP and under
APRC and ammend your activities accordingly. I take it PDOIS prefers APRC to the
PPP era. I know why but I can't share that. It would cost you $100,000.00 to
complement my funds for a research hospital in the place of the state house
mosque when I become President of Gambia.
Lamin, this is the one area that I think you and I have polarly opposite
views on. It is healthy though because I give you the opportunity to convince me
that I should support PDOIS as opposed to APRC or UDP/NRP. Trust me if you
can convince me, Kukeh and Suntou will be a piece of cake for I will join you
in persuading them. You know Suntou is already leaning that way. If he were to
lean any further he'd fall into the ditch. A friend of mine told me that it
generally gets pitch dark before total darkness. I suppose you guys and gals
at PDOIS would say "Darkness usually comes before Minuit". I haven't seen a
handful of folk so hopefull about darkness as you PDOIS folk.ll : >>>)!!!
Holla back.
Haruna.
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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