Brother Edie, I think Suntou is trying speaking with both of us here. Feel  
free to send your comments. I am not trivializing Suntou's  positions nor am I 
engaged in gaucherie. I simply find Suntou seriously  funny. I must give him 
credit for turning every conversation on religion and God  into evangelistic 
pursuits and circumstance. And he thinks we aint watching him.  I think we're 
getting somewhere though, if ever so excruciatingly slowly.
 
Suntou, you said:
[with masoud, this is a serious  conversation. if you find it funny, even 
more interesting. 
one thing  i would like make clear is that, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BLAME THE 
SATAN FOR OUR  ERRORS OR SINS. WE ARE GIVEN A WILL-POWER. AN INTERNAL WARNING 
SYSTEM THAT TELL  US WHEN WE ARE ERRING.]
 
This means that you agree God/Allah  created Shaitan. That Shaitan has his or 
her own problems. And so do we as  humans. Also that God/Allah created 
humans, male and female. God/Allah has power  over both Shaitan and humans and the 
jinns of Shaitan. And Allah/God warns us of  Shaitan. So Shaitan is not good. 
Humans have good and not good in them and that  they have control over both. 
That historically, humans and Shaitan have always  been at loggerheads. The 'not 
good' in humans, is it significantly different  from Shaitan or is the 
personification of Shaitan allegorical in religious  prose???? Could it be that the 
deamon inside of the human and the errant  Shaitan are one and the same????? 
Enquiring minds want to know. Did God/Allah  preclude intra-human 
jurisprudence? On Earth??? Remember this does not say  divine justice does not exist it 
merely supposes God/Allah believes in double  jeopardy and we are only too eager 
to leave that out of our law books through  divine intervention????? These are 
not funny questions Suntou. Your salvation  may depend on them. Who is that 
standing over your shoulder? Oh OK!
 
Later men. Haruna.
 
In a message dated 5/7/2008 4:30:31 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask] writes:

Edie, what  you didn't make clear is where you stand with the reveal books of 
God. what  religion you follow if any. because if you talk in general terms, 
we cannot  find any way forward. i write from a perspective of a Muslim. if 
you believe  in the validity and truthfulness of the Quran or the bible then, 
that is the  starting point for your quest for clarity. what others say and do 
shouldn't  matter to you. the quran is translated in English with commentaries. 
the bible  likewise. the sayings of the prophet Muhammad is also translated 
in English.  many people accept islam's teachings without discussing with any 
muslim. they  only read the quran. some people also read the bible to be 
convince. don't  worry about me, i am enjoying the exchange. 
what our people believe  or say about the Arabs shouldn't be of any problem.
with masoud,  this is a serious conversation. if you find it funny, even more 
interesting.  
one thing i would like make clear is that, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO  BLAME THE 
SATAN FOR OUR ERRORS OR SINS. WE ARE GIVEN A WILL-POWER. AN INTERNAL  WARNING 
SYSTEM THAT TELL US WHEN WE ARE ERRING.
the Satan is around.  god only warns us about his existence and his 
manipulations. if we decided to  invite him into our life's by doings thing that 
pleases him ,it is our  choice.
we are all adults. we know when we are making  mistakes.
i frimly believe that many understood the context i put  the examples in so i 
don't need to go over them.


Haruna  Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Suntou, you are a very  funny man. I just want you to know that.

[God is not doing any research  on us.] Suntou.

How do you know that???

[he already new what you  haruna will do from when your were a toddler to 
when you die even before  that.] Suntou.

And yet She tests me if I will do exactly what She knew  I would do. Then 
She destroys her own creation just to take inventory of  what I had done from 
birth to death to evaluate her own  hypotheses.

I guess we are prototypes of what She really intended to  create on account 
of out genetic uniquenesses.

[Edie claims that he  believe in God but he is confuse about certain things.] 
Suntou.

Me  too. Masoud. But I'm not confused about divine research.

[The Satan  blames man for his fall from grace and he is doing all he can for 
us too  to incur the rapt of our creator.] Suntou.

Sounds like Shaitan's  personal problem doesn't it?? And who created 
Shaitan??? I won't be  bothered by Shaitan. I got my own problems.

[it's like the Mandingo  saying ,bonoto kalafi anyun lella. a loser always 
wish for more losers.]  Suntou.

Misery loves company.

[the Satan knows God very well.  that is why when man sins he confess to not 
having any thing to do such a  person. The Satan's problem is arrogance and 
pride.] Suntou.

Again  Suntou, it sounds like Shaitan's personal problems to me.

[all man has  to do is obey the commandments. the blue prints for our way to 
God is  stated in his commandments. but since God knew what every man is 
going 
to  do, we are only fulfilling a that knowledge not changing it or altering  
it.] Suntou.

Exactly. I obey the ten commandments of Moussa. But  God/Allah is still 
conducting research on me for her own purposes. I obey  the ten commandments 
because my parents taught me, and because they make  sense for harmonious 
co-existence with my fellow man. I don't do it  because I am a subject of 
God/Allah's 
research. For I am not aware of  divine process there-in.

[we decide through our actions were our final  destiny lies.] Suntou.

A final destiny that was pre-destined and chosen  for us. How do you know I 
wouldn't like to choose another destiny  different from Heaven or Hell???

[if you take God's words to be just  fables, well and good, if you take them 
seriously again well and good.]  Suntou.

Focus Suntou. You are digressing. We are not talking about  God/Allah's words 
simply because people place their own interpretations on  such. What we want 
to know is whether God/Allah is conducting research on  us from your 
impression that She created us, created Shaitan, evicted us  from Janna 
because we 
mis-behaved, led astray by Shaitan, placed us on  earth to test us further, 
will 
recall us for judgement and inventory, will  either place us in Hell or 
Heaven, 
continue to monitor us. What I wanna  know is when will the research end????

[the message is clear. that is  do good and give God his dues and you will 
attain eternal bliss.]  Suntou.

Speak for yourself. Eternal bliss = research ad-infinitum. I  look forward 
eagerly to the yield of such perpetual research.

[the  basic requirement from us is to know God in the correct way, conduct 
the  basic worship and live with him in mind.] Suntou.

Yes. And She will  determine if we have done exactly what She had ordained.

[if that is  too difficult to comprehend then, we may analyse our respective 
field of  expertise and see who is wrong.] Suntou.

That wouldn't be necessary. It  is not about who is wrong or right when it 
comes to divinity. It is about  whether you have God/Allah in you.

[i will take Baba galeh here for  instance, he is a great bloke, and 
intelligent fellow and highly qualified  human being. yet he didn't say, i am 
bless 
with intelligence let me relax  in Farafeni and my intelligence will guide 
me. 
he worked hard in school.  he knew the field he is most capable of and he 
directed his energy on that  path. he is already with a masters degree and 
has 
worked for high profile  organisations. isn't that enough endeavour? to him 
no, he 
is now pursuing  a doctorate degree. why is Baba doing all that? is it easy 
attaining a  masters degree? no. how many hours do one has to put in to get 
such 
a high  level education.? now coming to our other brother Lamin J Darboe. he 
is a  very intelligent brother whose intelligence was well known before he 
left  the Gambia. he attain the highest level of law studies in the u.s. he 
is a  
barrister. but did Mr Darboe just accept his intelligence and sit at home?  
he 
worked hard for all he achieve. likewise many brothers and
sisters  study the things that interest them. God did not tell us to do those 
 
studies. we knew it will help us in our future careers. we want the best  in 
life.] Suntou.

Suntou, have you bothered to ask Galleh and JDAM  why they are doing what 
they do???? And what does that have to do with  God/Allah conducting research 
on 
them unawares????


[In our  every day life, God is present with us in his knowledge. he is not  
dictating to us what to do. he send us our constitution and guide, his  words 
through a man from among us. this man deliver the message of God.  just like 
any 
speaker, we are entitle to say, what a load of rubbish or  what a waste of 
time you are.
if one wants to understand the message of  God, you take time and analyse his 
messages in the books containing them,  if you still think the messages are 
vake, then consult the experts in that  field, just like we consult legal 
advisers, accountants, coaches,  teachers, doctors, etc. we cannot have an 
excuse 
in the hereafter.]  Suntou.

You are all over the place. Suntou, are you now wanting to  rephrase your 
supposition that God/Allah evicted from heaven because  Shaitan enticed us 
into 
evil so we can continue to be tested here on earth  for the later reckoning 
for 
inventory sakes to continue being subjects of  research in heaven or hell as 
will be determined by  God/Allah????

[God told people in the Quran, " won't you ponder over  the message i reveal 
to you?"] Suntou.

I did. And I continue to do  that.

[He also told us to look into our own creation, there is a lesson  for those 
who think. the anatomy of man is full of what amaze us every  single day. the 
Satan is only there to distract us. we as men let him have  control over us, 
we 
let him rule us. the Satan has his own kingdom. he  rule over the jinns and 
men who obey him. he gave his followers things  that they should have to wait 
for.] Suntou.

And God/Allah created  us, Saitan, and all the jinns.

[the confusion over the messengers is  all man's determination to live the 
way he deem fit. a close example is  when we have elected members 
representing us 
in government. we expect this  people to do what we voted them to do.] 
Suntou.

Forget the  messengers and the representatives of govt. we voted for or will 
vote for.  What does that have to do with God/Allah??? It seems to me these 
folk have  their own deamons and personal problems they must account for. 
That is 
why  we prosecute them here on earth before they answer to their creator for  
the other side of double jeopardy.

[but this men later becomes more  powerful than us. they rather tell us what 
we should do not the other way  round. they make laws that restrict our 
rights, 
they lock us up and enjoy  our tax revenue. yet we feel this people should be 
listening to us. we  normally tell them, next election , we will not vote for 
you.]  Suntou.

And whose faults are you sharing?? I hope you don't think those  are 
God/Allah's faults.

[As for God ,the day he will ask us to give  account, there will be no next 
time.] Suntou.

Advice: Don't wait  for the day of divine judgement. Judge on earth and 
forgive or punish.  Then let God/Allah do what She wills.

[this is why it is important that  we don't make life more complicated than 
it is. we all Believe in God. But  we need to believe the correct way. we 
need 
to prove that we believe by  doing the bare minimum required of us. if you 
are 
Muslims, pray the five  daily prayers, fast during Ramadan, go for hajj in 
you 
are capable, give  zakat when you have the wealth. and firmly believe in The 
uniqueness and  oneness of god without any partner or lookalike, without any 
concept that  we are all gods or any thing like that.] Suntou.

The five pillars of  Islam. Eemaan. I told you you are funny Suntou. The 
moment I look away,  you are right back where you began. I gotta watch yew.

[i will now  continue on the holy men's issue. the marabouts, the seriegns, 
the  chernos.] Suntou.

I am not interested. They have their personal  problems and deamons to deal 
with.
Masoud. MQJGDT. Darbo. Al  Mu'umin.






Haruna Darbo wrote:
In other words  God/Allah is conducting research on his creation. Ergo, we 
are only  significant to her and NOT ourselves. What success are we working 
toward  ag
now coming to one of our brother, Lamin J Darboe, he is also a high  
intelligent pain?????

I think brother Sidibeh is unto something  Suntou. The Shaitan/devil is the 
conflicts within Ourselves and not a  countervailing force of divine research.

Haruna. I just remembered the  landscape project is not quite complete. My 
son has brought two key points  to my attention. One is divine, and the other 
is 
process. I shall  share them with you my friends under appropriate topic.


In a  message dated 5/6/2008 5:47:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask] writes:

Brother Edie, if you are following  me, i am taking a sequence. i am coming 
to the questions you  asked.
what is imperative is that we understand our relationship with god  and then 
with the Satan. You don't need to worry about the temptations of  the Satan 
if 
you fully understand what God expects of you. The reality  of the state of 
the human being is such that, we are given a freedom to  choose between good 
and 
evil. that is part of our privilege creation.  since you are using practical 
examples to explain our responsibilities as  humans, i will do likewise to 
decode other issues.

Mr sidibe, we  all know that nothings comes that free, we work hard for our 
success.  suppose you work in a factory that manufacture mobile phones. your 
boss  told you that i trust you that you will not steal any phone. and he fix 
 
some cameras to monitor you whilst you work. this cameras cover every  angle 
of 
the work place. but you know unless some thing major happens  your boss will 
not check the camera records. you start to steal some  phones once in a 
while. 
your boss never caught you but your actions  are on tape.
you work for that company until you are retired. your boss  then plan a send 
off for you. he never knew what bad things you have  done.he trusted you to 
do 
what is right with all the temptation to  steal few phones. 
similarly, God's decision to let the devil tempt us is a  test brother Edie. 
that test is the measure of our determination to obey  him or obey our 
nemesis 
the devil. we cannot just be created to obey  god, without any test, that 
will not make us any different from other  animals.
the test is the key for our success or failure in the hereafter.  just like 
we 
are given exams in schools or universities.
the point  you stated concerning " no one will go to hell" is a concept that 
the  nation of Islam preaches. but the reality is that ,hell is a place for  
punishment and cleansing. we should all pray that God forbid us from  
entering 
into it.
men like pol pot,Mobutu, HITLER COMMITTED ACTS  WHICH ARE horrible yet no one 
has punished them for their actions, do you  believe that those men will not 
get judged by their creator? 
as  Muslims we believe that hell is a test for all believers. those who obey  
the commandments of GOD will be blessed with paradise and others with  hell. 
but the decision to either punish or bless lies only in god's hand.  the 
creation of the devil or Satan is part of test. he is needed to test  the 
obedience 
and promise of man. all that the devil tempt men can be  substitute with what 
is allowed by god. for instance, instead of adultery  one can marry. instead 
of consuming alcohol one can drink juice or water.  etc. i will continue 
later. 
the real issue here is why and how men  give their life to the Satan, be it 
in the name of arts and creativity, or  entertainment,wars,wealth,fame and 
over 
zealousity. we shall take a  sequence.thanks



since you are using practi

Edie Sidibeh  wrote:
Thank you again Mr.Touray for your clarification on the issue of  faith. 
However sir, you did not answer my question but pondering on the  same old 
story I 
have heard over and over again. What I am asking is  the reason why God take 
us out of the Garden to earth? also as why should  God let satan to exist if 
He/She did not Obey His will? God says that,  everything on earth is an 
example 
of that we will have in heaven.  

Taking that to consideration, When swomeone works for a company for  certain 
period and at the end does not want to Obey the company's  regulations 
disagreeing with the owners and the owners have no other  choice than sending 
Him/her 
packing, should the company be mandated to  paying him continuously for life 
or should it be for certain period? Again  God says before you worship me, 
you 
should "try" to know me first.  

Again, knowing someone or somebody those not come in a silver plate  but 
asking a clarity about him and why he does certain thing that does not  
motivate 
you to follow what he/she is preaching concerning your  interest. Some people 
will be critical if one will asked certain question  regarding God, some will 
tell that God doesn't want you to asked many  questions but to believe Him. 
Of 
course I believe in God as well as  the prophets but the stories that 
preachers said are those that are  confusing, as such, if God took us out of 
the 
Garden because we are  sinful, why will He take us back while we are not 
clean? 

Again, my  stupid logic told me that, GOD GAVE US THE SENSES WE ARE USING TO 
THINK  FEEL TOUCH SEE AND HEAR. These are things that we can use to know what 
is  right and wrong, therefore, why do we need Satan to influence us WHILE 
THE  
BRAIN IS THERE TO ASSIST OUR SENSES? If something is term wrong it  therefore 
satanic but anything good is Godly, in this way who will take  responsibility 
if something goes wrong hence Satan is more powerful than  we are. Therefore, 

everybody should go to heaven because we are  powerless to resist things we 
cannot see feel or touch and  hear.

That is why God said between me and you no one will go to hell,  because He 
knows that we are our own Satan for that matter He said only  between you and 
your fellow human-being will take you to  hell.

Again thanks for your  time.














/Brother  Edie, you are a very humble person. We are all students in this 
global  village. Be proud with what you know and express it so that others 
can  
learn from you. The topic has been expanded. We shall include every thing  
relevant here. Our learned brothers are a bit miserly, they don't easily  
part with 
knowledge. Haruna is one educated brother.

Coming to  the real issue of our relationship as human beings with the Devil 
or  Satan. i will put it in a story form but it is how the scholars of Islam  
explained it.

Long before man was created ,a being was among the  angels. Angels don't 
disobey the commands of God. They are created that  way. The duties assigned 
to is 
done to perfection and they engage in  the glorification of God all their 
life's. Among the Angels was the Devil  or Satan or Jinn. He was created from 
Fire. He served among the Angels ,at  one point rose to be among the 
leadership. 
What causes a high ranking  being among the Angels to be banished to 
oblivion? God in his infinite  plans, started creating our ancestor Adam. As 
Muslims 
we believe that  God created Adam with his own hands. when Adam was laying in 
a 
form of  clay or mud. the Angels will be wondering what being God is 
creating. The  Satan started to be jealous of Adam has he lay in a lifeless 
form. It  
is reported that, The Satan usually point its finger at Adam's Tummy  saying 
" 
i don't know what is this but if any thing his tummy will be  a big 
temptation 
for him". to this many scholars said, the Satan's  words proof true against 
us as humans, our quest for livelihood make us do  many horrendous things. 
all 
we pursue in life is related to our  happiness and comfort. from thief's to 
murderer.

When Adam was  completed to the human form, God then created a soul. The soul 
is not from  God. The soul is created. Then Adam's soul is breath into him. 
Then God  authorised the Angels and Satan to prostrate to Adam. God created 
us  
with honour and respect. To this request the Angels fall down and  
prostrated. 
But the Satan refused.
He disobeyed the command of God.  This is a serious issue but the Satan was 
ready to face any consequences.  He was asked, why did you refuse to obey the 
command of God? his answer,  which is similar to what many human beings say 
to 
day is " i am better  than him, you created me from fire and him from clay". 
God told the Satan  ," i know things you don't know". but the Satan was 
adamant. It refuse to  bodge. He sealed his faith. What is the difference 
between 
committing  a sin and falling in a state of disbelief? to commit a sin one 
knowingly  do an act that he is forbidden from doing. to commit disbelief or 
kuffur,  one denies the the validity of there being any wrong in his or her 
action.  
he/she don't belief the commands are reasonable and valid. this is  disbelief.
an example, God command Muslims not to commit fornication and  adultery. we 
as humans have many temptations. one way or the other, you  find yourself 
committing fornication. you accepts that it is wrong but you  followed your 
desire 
and commit a major sin in Islam which has a  stipulated punishment in here 
and 
the hereafter. but still you do it.  That is a sin.
but if you don't belief that fornication is a sin and that  why should it be 
a sin? it is a relationship between two consenting adult,  it is unreasonable 
for God to regard it a sin, then you have disbelief and  disregard God's 
commandments and his validity and existence.

What  the devil did was the later. He told God, i am better than Adam 
,meaning  human. i am made of fire, still coming to the discrimination issue. 
the  
statement of the devil is thus, you God made a mistake. you were  irrational 
and 
unjust to tell me to bow down to an inferior creation  of yours. whom he 
thought don't deserve any honour from him.
God then  asked him the Satan, what do you want? i reward you now all the 
past deeds  you have done or later? he opted for a condition that He the 
Satan  
live till dooms day. that wish of him was granted. Before parting he made  a 
promise to God. That is " i will make all the offspring of Adam, the man  who 
is 
responsible for my banishment to disobey you" .God replied ,you  can only 
make 
those who listen to you disobey me.
this is the  condition we are in Edie. God never abandon us as humans. he 
through out  our existence have send men among us with his message, his 
guidance  
and word. 
what is important for us as people to realise is that, God  has given us a 
brain. that set us apart from all other creatures. we can  differentiate what 
is 
good and what is not depending on our state of  mind. we can take time to 
read the books containing the words of God, we  can take time and asked those 
who 
spend their time learning about God  and the way to him. this is all our 
choice. but let no one mistake the  words of God's punishment for disobeying 
him. 
there is a hell fire and  there is paradise. there is a day of judgement. yes 
we may not be able to  do acts that will guarantee us paradise but obeying 
God's commandment is  an indication that we held him high and respect his 
words. 
i will  continue later brother Edie. thanks a lot. 

Edie Sidibeh  wrote:
Thanks again Suntu, 

I am not doing this to offend anyone but  to clear my doubt on certain issue 

=== message truncated  ===

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