KB,

You must be commended for ignoring the personal charaterizations- ie calling
you "liar", "lunatic" etc. Some people forget that the majority of readers
have their thinking caps on and can discern what contitutes a liar or
lunatic. Just calling somebody these names does not make him fit the
characterization; in some cases, the name callers are infact revealing their
own weaknesses. If it is true that all those who participated in this debate
are sincere about their commitments to the struggle against the misery in
the Gambia, then their disagreements over issues should not decline into
such charaterizations.True we all cannot agree on all issues, but let's try
to express those agreements in more mature ways.

There was one point made concerning the fact that you (KB) had never seen
Jammeh point a gun at anybody- the implication being (i assume) that he
(Jammeh) should not be called a murderer. That is a serious over
simplication. We only have to look at the ongoing cases of Milosevic and
Pinochet. I don't think anybody had seen them pointing guns at anybody, but
they have been accused of mass murders...

AT


>From: Dampha Kebba <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Message to Gambia-l...
>Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:00:10 -0400
>
>Ms. Joh, first of all I wish to inform you that I did not mean to be curt
>yesterday. I was on the road and had a very busy schedule. I did not at all
>mean to insinuate that you were taking sides. I took your intervention in
>good faith and continue to take it in good faith. Feel free to butt in
>anytime. Even if I disagree with you, I will try to do so in a respectful
>manner. I value your contributions to this struggle.
>
>Now, having said that, let me address the issue at hand. To break it down
>to
>simpler perspectives, here is what is going on. What happened to Chongan in
>this forum is not very different from what used to happen (and in limited
>cases still happen) to rape victims. I apologize for my graphic analogy,
>but
>I feel it adequately portrays what I see happening to this man.
>
>Women are always encouraged to come forward and expose their victims. The
>minute they surface, some Philistine will come from nowhere, pretend to
>sympathize with the woman (because that is the only humane thing to do) and
>the next thing you know, the same man is doubting the credibility of the
>woman and would start talking about how the woman also abused her children
>in the past. Very soon, people will forget about the rapist terrorizing the
>society. Instead all focus will be on the woman and crimes that even the
>'victims' do NOT want to pursue anymore. The Philistine's friends will come
>in and start talking about how the woman shouted at them. How the woman
>does
>not greet people when she encounters them etc. Mind you, the woman's
>children (victims) are not even complaining about the alleged abuse. But
>our
>Philistine has managed to take away focus from the real culprit and make
>the
>rape victim the focus of people's vile.
>
>This tactic by defenders of rapists rendered a lot of rapists scot-free
>from
>their crimes. Worse still, a lot of victims have looked at the way other
>victims have been treated, and opted to internalize their agony from rape.
>Rather than coming out to expose rapists, these women will decide to stay
>mute because they do not want to be exposed to vicious attacks from the
>public that are always eager to engage in character assassination.
>
>All of you (and I hate to put you in this category) have conveniently
>avoided pointed questions I posed to you. Instead what I get is people
>castigating me for defending the reputation of a honorable man. This is NOT
>ego-tripping for me. If it was, I would be addressing mails that called me
>a
>liar, dishonest, a lunatic, a fanatic, intolerant etc. I am NOT addressing
>those issues affecting me directly. I am addressing the issues affecting
>Chongan, who I believe has been grossly wronged. This is NOT a 'small
>issue'
>that is distracting people. This is a very serious issue. Some kid wakes
>up,
>come and accuse the man of being a torturer and a worse monster than
>Yankuba
>Touray and Edward Singhateh. Others jump in to support him in this wild
>accusation. Instead of fair-minded people telling the kid to back up what
>he
>is saying or quit telling lies, they turn on people that are defending
>Chongan's reputation. What kind of justice is this? Now, it is OK for
>anyone
>to say that people are torturers and the onus is on the person accused to
>prove a negative. What happened to fundamental fairness and the maxim that
>he who asserts must prove? I do not expect people to fight my battles for
>me
>and come to G_L to lecture some misguided kid for me. By the same token, I
>do not expect fair-minded people to condone the wrongs of these children
>and
>blame me for defending the truth.
>
>We are sick of these generalized statements about what people under Chongan
>might have done. Chongan and Colly did not talk about Yaya in their
>narration of the events on September 7, 1994. They talked about Sana
>Sabally, Yankuba Touray, Edward Singhateh and Sadibou Hydara. Why? Because
>those people were present and partook in that torture. Now, if one wants to
>compare Chongan with these animals, one has to show us where Chongan
>tortured someone in a way worse than he was tortured. This is the
>fundamental issue here. No one is saying that people should not say bad
>things about Chongan. But, let that thing be the truth.
>
>I do not know where this idea about atrocities committed during the Jawara
>regime came from. Certainly not from Ebou Colly or Chongan. Not from me
>either. I also do not know why people see it necessary to remind me or
>Chongan about what happened during the Jawara era. Are some of you even
>sure
>that you know more about those atrocities than I do? How many times did I
>mention here about Dumo's suffering both during the Jawara era and the APRC
>era? I know Alieu Sallah personally and spoke to him about his ordeal.
>Perhaps the worst victim of torture in the aftermath of 1981. I was NOT in
>my mother's arms, like Ous Ngum, in 1981. I used to go to 'Depot' to take
>provisions to people. People speaking for Chongan do NOT hold brief for the
>Jawara regime. Bringing that into the discussion just seeks to deflect
>matters from the critical point; i.e. Chongan was accused unjustifiably. We
>start talking about that issue people want to take us to 1981 which has
>nothing to do with Chongan. We all know what happened in 1981. If it is
>that
>important to certain people, why did they not write books about the matter
>or defend the victims when it mattered in 1981/1982? Why bring that up now
>in light of Chongan's revelations? Is Chongan the poster-child of the
>Jawara
>regime?
>
>The people making these wild and unsubstantiated allegations about Chongan,
>did they have the decency to at least acknowledge that the things they are
>accusing Chongan of (even if they are true) are less serious than what
>happened to him while he was defending our Constitution, if I may add? My
>defense of Chongan in this matter is child's play compared to the limit I
>will go to defend this man. In 1994 when loose-canons like Sabally and
>Singhateh were going around with their AK-47s, I was defending Chongan from
>these vermin. To argue on the Internet to defend his good name in the face
>of some vicious lies, is nothing to me. If I feel that someone has been
>wronged, I defend them and stand by them all the way. This is NOT personal
>or because Chongan is my friend. Far from it. Only people that do NOT know
>me will say that. I challenge anyone to show me categorically where I
>exhibited bias because of some perceived friendship. Most of the people I
>defend on G_L I do NOT even know them. Rather than speaking in innuendo, we
>should be man enough to come out and say what we want to say directly to
>the
>people concerned.
>
>People that want to go after Jawara and his supporters can be my guest.
>People that want to harp on the atrocities of 1981 can be my guest too. But
>please let no one point at me to say that I am trying to stop them from
>digging past atrocities. I further caution those people to also be prepared
>to back up things they are going to say that might affect me one way or the
>other. If anyone lies about something I care about, I will make my views be
>known. If people think that alienating the Jawara supporter is what is
>going
>to help us get rid of Yaya, fine. Let those people pursue that agenda. My
>agenda is to put aside matters we cannot do anything about right now and
>instead all work to remove Yaya.
>
>The notion of replacing Yaya with a worse Dictator would have been relevant
>to this discussion had Chongan expressed interest in becoming a leader in
>this struggle. Far from that, the man is trying to make a decent life in
>Britain and show no interest whatsoever in pursuing political office in
>Gambia. None of us even remotely suggested that we wanted to replace
>Chongan
>with Yaya. So where does this idea of 'castigating Chongan because we do
>not
>want to get a worse Dictator than Yaya' comes from? Again, these are the
>arguments of people that do NOT want to tackle issues head-on. Show us how
>Chongan is worse than Singhateh. Show us how attacking Chongan is going to
>help the struggle. That is what we are talking about.
>
>Ms. Joh, I did NOT mean to single you out. Most of what I said addressed
>issues you did NOT raise at all. Therefore, please do NOT take ownership of
>those. I have limited time in my hands and could not respond to the various
>messaged addressed to me. You know I value your contributions. I mean no
>disrespect to you. Matter of fact, the thing that was nagging me the most
>yesterday, was for me to explain to you why I was curt with you. Thanks
>again for your contributions.
>KB
>
>
>
>>From: Jabou Joh <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list
>><[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Message to Gambia-l...
>>Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:49:30 EDT
>>
>>I\Assalaamu alaikum Ginny,
>>
>>Thanks for the "food for thought" It is true that this issue will not be
>>resolved here.
>>I will also use this occasion to address KBs response to my post
>>commenting
>>on this discussion. i am not taking sides KB. I have a lot of respect for
>>both you and Ous Ngum, and your point about the accusation by Ous is well
>>taken.
>>
>>However, we have to remember that everything that we are addressing
>>regarding
>>the Jammeh regime, as well as the Jawara regime where those wronged have
>>never had an outlet to have these wrongs addressed, will have to be
>>resolved
>>in a court of law one day we hope. That is the venue where bot hthe
>>accused
>>and the accusers will have the burden of proof against each other. Until
>>that
>>time, all that can be offered are words, and from this, we cannot really
>>reach any conclusions.
>>I make my point again, that we tend to take thimgs a little too personal,
>>and
>>so long as we Gambians do not learn to detach ourselves from the issues we
>>must discuss to get them resolved, we will never get anywhere. I urge you
>>guys to move one, and most important of all, I urge all of us to try to
>>cooperate in our effort to forge a better future for our country. We have
>>to
>>begin to see the bigger picture people.
>>Thanks Ginny for the words of wisdom.
>>
>>
>>Jabou Joh
>>
>>n a message dated 7/12/2001 2:54:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
>>[log in to unmask] writes:
>>
>>
>> > But it would seem a sizable number of you
>> > guys want Jammeh out.  So if that is what you want, even though you
>>might
>> > have differing opinions on other things, put those aside and try to get
>>the
>> > bigger goal accomplished.  The same goes for those of you who want
>>Jammeh in
>> > office for 5 more years.  All I'm saying is that you can focus on your
>> > differences after the bigger goal is accomplished...
>> >      All of this childish bickering, though, is not going to help you
>>win
>> > elections.  And it is July, guys, October isn't far away...  Three
>>months,
>> > in fact...
>> >      So just agree to disagree on this, and please move on.
>> > Ginny
>> >
>> >
>>
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