Hello, another response to this discussion from an African-American
Muslim woman.  BTW, I'd wanted to get input from other African or
African-American Muslims on this issue, since Islam was brought into
the discussion.  And I feel I'm straying into an area that I just
don't know that much about.  The post follows:

Ginny, I must say that your response to Kabir was excellent.
Obviously, Kabir wants to blame Islam and as you rightfully put it, no
matter what you say
or do, he will continue to blame Islam.

The article I felt was weak in trying to make this connection.  But
the blame Islam game is very popular today.  If someone wear to ask me
as an African
American how do I feel about the fact that Muslims owned slaves, I
would say this...

Name one race of people that did not practice one form of oppression
or slavery on another?  In Europe, Europeans owned slaves but it was
called serfdom,
but you were tied to the land that you worked, you couldn't free
yourself of the debt that you owed the feudal lords and your family
would inherit the
same position that you were in.  That's almost identical to Black
slaves in America where if your grandfather was a slave, you were
automatically a slave.

When I read Kabir's comments, I kept thinking, "People who live in
glass houses shouldn't throw stones."  Is he not aware of the fact
that Africans owned
other Africans?  Is he willing to admit that some Africans sold other
Africans into slavery or that Arabs owned other Arabs.  Kabir must
think that people
only owned slaves of races different than their own but that's not
true.  Whether it is race, tribal status, religion, skin color, etc,
there has always
been a mechanism in power to keep one group on top and the other on
the bottom.  Will he not address a very modern form of slavery called
sweatshop work
where people work for 14 hours a day non-stop, sometimes at gunpoint,
for 10 cents a day (or a week in some places).  How does Islam play
into that?

Every race of people at one time or another was the oppressor or the
oppressed and as much as Kabir may not realize this, Christian, Muslim
and Jewish Africans
and Arabs owned slaves.   No one is free of this since slavery is an
institution that goes back into the days of early human history but if
he is content
to lay it all at the feet of Islam with these glaring facts before
him, well that's just denial.

I am sorry if I sound so cynical and none of my annoyance is directed
at any sister on this group but rather at these people who want to
blame all the ills
of the world on Islam.  Kabir and others would be better off studying
the history of Black Islamic figures like Bilah ibn Rabah, Nana
Asma'u, El-Hajj Malik
al-Shabazz, Muhammad Ali, Amadou Bamba, Usman dan Fodio, Umar Tal and
others (may God bless them all and keep them).


On 7/30/05, Amadu Kabir Njie <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Ginny,
>
> Thanks for making an attempt to quote Moore where he equated Arabs and
> Islam, but it seems to me that you are ascribing to him things that he did
> not say at all.
>
> What you showed in quotes and ascribed to Moore are the words of Anson
> Musselman and not Moore. Where Anson Musselman directly quoted Moore the
> words are in quotation marks. Go back and read the article. The following
> are comments by Anson Musselman as preamble to the article:
>
> "...The Arab Model
>
> Moore in his youth set out to find what historical
> events led to the establishment of a racial hierarchy
> in Latin America, where race mixing is the norm, yet
> lightness and darkness of skin still matters. His
> findings led him to believe that the paradigms of race
> in Latin America are directly descended from the time
> when Arabs controlled the Iberian Peninsula, the
> homeland of Spanish and Portuguese colonialism in the
> Americas.
>
> Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> (today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> majority of Muslims from Iberia...."
>
> Then he goes on to quote Moore and note that this is in quotation marks in
> the original piece:
> "I have had the privilege to have lived in Arab
> countries," Moore said, "and to be shocked by the
> extraordinary similarities to Latin America of
> structures of race in countries like Egypt. It was
> familiar ground. I was twenty-one, had just left Cuba.
> I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
>
> The rest of the piece consists of a series of comments by Anson Musselman
> himself and quotes from Moore.
> Even though the word Islam is mentioned, nowhere is it directly quoted from
> Moore's.
>
> Again, the gist of Moore's lecture was 'Arab and Latino racism'. Period! He
> was not even misquoted using Arab and Islam interchangeably, in fact he was
> never quoted using the word 'Islam'.
>
> Since you keep harping about being compared to Yaya Jammeh I would be glad
> if you can let me know who compared you with him. I wrote:
>
> "...For me one is not religious or God-fearing by merely wearing their
> religion on their sleeve. If it should be so, Yaya Jammeh would be one of
> the most religious people in the whole world, for he sports a rosary
> longer than that of Ayatolah Khomeni and dresses like the Sultan of
> Sokoto...."
>
> If you see yourself in this remark it's fine by me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kabir
>
>
> Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:The following is the first quote where
> he mentions "Muslims".
>
> >Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> >(today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> >culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> >By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> >majority of Muslims from Iberia.
> >
>
>
> What is interesting to me, is that first, he mentions how "Arabs"
> conquered the Iberian Peninsula, but in the last sentence, says how
> "Muslims", were driven out by the Christian armies? Being that he
> seems to be using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably,
> who is the one confusing "Arab" with "Muslim". Or else, were there
> Arabs left over after the "Muslims" were driven out?
>
> Also he goes on to say:
>
> >I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> >how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> >the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> >Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> >structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> >a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> >Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
>
> While the vast majority of people in Egypt were Muslims, what is
> the point of bringing up Islam here? If he's only talking about Arab
> culture, why bring up religion? There seems to be an underlying
> assumption here, by him, not me, that Muslim = Arab, because he
> himself seems to be using the two words interchangeably, in at least
> one part of the article.
>
> >Moore sees the export of Arab-model slavery and race
> >relations to the New World by the Spanish and
> >Portuguese, who had absorbed it during the Muslim
> >occupation of Iberia.
>
> OK, again, he's using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim"
> interchangeably. First, he talks about the "Arab Model" of slavery,
> and then talks about the "Muslim occupation" of the Iberian Peninsula.
> If there was a difference between "Arab" and "Muslim", he should have
> pointed it out. Or, why not use the phrase "the Arab occupation"?
> Whatever the case,he did mention "Muslims" and "Islam", so I think my
> reading comprehension is quite good, thank you very much.
>
> "The conquest of America begins
> >when the Arabs are expelled from this part of the
> >world by Europeans."
>
> And here, he definitely confirms my point, that he's using the
> words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably, so I'd like to know who is
> getting the two terms confused? I don't think it's me! It's also
> interesting to know that he also uses the terms "Christian" and
> "European" interchangeably as well.
>
> Later on in the article, he goes on further to say that:
>
> In Arab
> >societies there are all sorts of ranks. There are
> >infidels, those who are believers, and the mulatto
> >category which is viewed as a ladder for ascension."
> >
>
> What is he talking about here? When he mentions "infidels", who
> is he talking about? Or Believers? Believers in what? Given that
> he's already used the term "Muslim" and Arab" interchangeably, I'd
> have to conclude that he's referring to Muslim belief?
>
> As far as the points he makes regarding race relations
> themselves, I have no argument with what he has to say about that, in
> and of itself. It's the seeming way that he uses "Arab" and "Muslim"
> as if they mean the same thing, that I think I, and the other lady,
> whose comments I posted, had a problem with. I don't think either one
> of us were trying to insinuate that "Arab" and "Muslim" meant the same
> thing, or that we are confusing the two. In fact, it seems to be Mr.
> Moore who is doing so. Not us!
>
> As far as the other "irrelevant" issues, I'd consider them "side
> issues", rather than "Irrelevant ones". Given the direction the
> discussion was going, or I should say, the direction that I chose to
> take the discussion, I feel the issues were relevant, else I'd not
> have brought them up.
>
> I still think it's funny that I've been compared to Jammeh, not
> only because of any outward religiosity or piety on my part, but also
> because, since I didn't understand the article, in the same way that
> you did, that my intelligence, comprehension, and even my honesty has
> been called into question.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Visit my blog at: http://GinnysThoughts.blogspot.com/

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