Abdoulaye Saine All for Change


Ladies and Gents, Dr. Abdoulaye Saine.  Please read on.

The Independent (Banjul)

INTERVIEW
July 25, 2003
Posted to the web July 25, 2003

Banjul

Describe him as a living example of Africa and The Gambia being at the
losing end of the brain drain and you may not be wrong. But Abdoulaye Saine
has no regrets for living a good part of his life in the United States where
he is a university lecturer. Saine who is here on a visit believes that the
overriding political prescription for The Gambia is change - ultimate change
in the status quo.

In the 2001 elections, the opposition parties thought they had it all done
and dusted when they merged into a coalition and sized up against the APRC
and President Jammeh in particular. It didn't work out well.

Support the work of AllAfrica

Contribute!

Your tax-deductible donation to the AllAfrica Foundation, in any amount,
supports our reporting on issues like sustainable development, peace
building and HIV/Aids.


Donate now >>>

Read why you should >>>



The coalition that many were expecting to unseat the APRC were at sixes and
sevens with themselves. Thus, three parties went solo, leaving two more to
merge and go for it. It played well into Jammeh's hands, and he made the
finish line with a lot to spare. Well, while that coalition had just three
months to shape things out, a new coalition, made up of Gambians in the
Diaspora has three years to get started before 2006.

Professor Abdoulaye Saine is a member of that coalition of opposition
forces, and as he unravels here they are not taking chances with time.

This US-based University lecturer minces no words about his feelings for the
APRC administration. Born in the early fifties in Kaur, Saine attended Kaur
Primary and Armitage High Schools and got a Teachers Certificate at the
Yundum College and pushed chalk at Kerewan and Crab Island Junior Schools.
Saine left for the US in the mid 70s, where he did Graduation Work at the
University of Denver and got a Ph.D. in International Studies from Canada's
Carleton University. He lectured for nearly a decade at the Washington State
University before moving to the Miami University in Ohio.

In this issue of Portrait, Saine talks on the coalition, why it wants to see
Jammeh heading for the exit and other issues.

Why the US?

Well, I had exhausted most of the opportunities available in The Gambia. It
just so happened that an opportunity came up to go to school in the US and I
seized it.

How did it all come about?

It came through the largesse of former lecturer at the Yundum college, Omar
Sey, also a former foreign minister in the first republic.

He made the arrangements for me to go to university in the US. The rest as
they say is history.

Give us a rundown of America in the 70s

The 70s were a time of much change in the US. We witnessed the resignation
of President Nixon, following the Watergate crisis. He was pardoned
ultimately by President Ford and there was a lot of concern over the
amnesty. Following that, Carter came in with an emphasis on human rights,
which clearly didn't go down well with the American people. He was voted
out. In came Reagan. Then came the conservative trend in the US political
landscape. That ended with the coming of Clinton. Again, the 70s were an era
of change and conservatism.

As an African, did you felt left out in American society?

Well, going to any society for the first time poses a lot of challenges,
especially for a young man coming from The Gambia, a small country and
relatively under developed. But with time, you adjust to the culture. You
work hard and you integrate partially into the society or your profession. I
think I have really integrated very well into my profession.

Life in the US wasn't a walk in the park. What kept you going?

Well, perseverance, friends, family prayer and the determination to
accomplish my goal. It was never a single endeavour. There is usually a lot
of support that goes along with any success and I think part of my success
has to do with that. Much of it also rests on the fact that I had family and
friends.

Relive your days at Washington State University?

Washington State University is a grand institution. It is quite large, with
30, 000 students. This is where I began as a junior faculty member, teaching
courses in political science, introductory courses in International
Relations and a host of other courses. With time, I left Washington State
for greener pastures in Miami of Ohio, where I currently lecture. The nature
of my job after you've been promoted once, twice, you need to perhaps move
on to some other place in order to get better wages.

Life is not treating you badly out there?

Well, life is not very exciting. I live in a very small town of about 8,000
people. The nearest city is about an hour away. My life really is one of
research, teaching and conferencing. I have a family life, which is quite
good, but really any excitement I get usually comes from the big cities,
which is very often. Living in a small town is atypical of America. When
people think of the US, they think of the big cities - New York, Washington
DC, Atlanta, etc. The place I live is tranquil and I like it that way. It
gives me the time to do my research, my writing. In the professorate, you
are promoted based on how much you produce in terms of academic writing and
publication. I teach only two courses a semester, which gives me time to do
my research. For the last eight years, I have focused on my research in The
Gambia

Research on which Gambian sector?

Well, I have really looked at The Gambia since the 1994 coup, the elections
of 1996

Why the coup?

Largely because my interest before then was mostly looking at democracy,
democratization in the larger continent. But with the coup, something
monumental really happened in The Gambia. Then I began to re-focus my
research. It also happened coincidentally because I wrote a desertation on
the military and military interventions in Africa. That together with my our
personal training and interest made it possible for me to look at the
Gambian coup.

I assume you gave it a critical look?

You could say my work has been very critical, balanced and objective. Many
of my articles have also been published in the papers here and the US. The
latest came out in the Journal of Democracy, which is a major journal and
was serialised by The Point. When I was here last year, I wrote a report on
The Gambia, which was objective and quite critical.

Going back to the coup, what exactly were you driving at?

What I did in looking at the coup was to provide a theoretical context
within which one can begin to dissect the major causes of it. In my area of
study you can divide the coup into several factoral causes.

Clearly they were the environmental issues. By this I meant lack of
legitimacy of the PPP because of their overstay in power. There were issues
of corruption, the economy and so on. Similarly, there were also
organisational factors that are endemic within the military, which pinpoints
differences in terms of lack of trust between the Nigerian officers and the
junior Gambian officers, etc. These, in my view, were critical in the causes
of the coup.

Overall, what do you make of the coup?

I was very critical of it right from the start. If you look at the history
of post-coup detats in Africa, the resurge clearly shows that the military
are not equipped, especially organisation-wise to administer a country. If
you look at the record of the military in Africa, it has been very poor in
terms of performance.

Is it true to say that you have no room for the current regime?

I am very critical of the current government largely because of what I have
observed over the nine years they have been in power..

What are these observations?

Unlike most people, I have done a very thorough research of this regime. I
came to the conclusion that the promises and the justification that they
used to overthrow a democratically elected government clearly are more
apparent today than they were in 1994. They came preaching transparency,
probity and accountability. I see very little of that today. They said they
were soldiers with a difference, they weren't politicians, and they came to
improve the living conditions of Gambians today. Sadly, Gambians are poorer
with 69 percent of Gambians living in poverty. They've done something's -
don't get me wrong - some insfrastructural developments here and there but
that in itself is not enough. As I look at Gambians today I see a lot of
suffering, a lot of poverty. I talk to people and it appears to me that they
are very disappointed with the way things are going.

But they seemingly were not disappointed two years ago, when they voted him
in for another term?

In terms of the elections - well, I have written a very long piece on the
elections, the results and the process itself. When you look at the results,
clearly Jammeh won. But if you look at the process in terms of money being
dished out, the violence, the intimidation, the unequal playing field, then
one begins to have second thought. There were also allegations and there is
evidence to support that there were non-Gambians who voted in the elections.
I had made this clear in my research. If the elections were free and fair,
Jammeh would have probably been forced to a second round. If it had reached
a second round, there was a good chance that he would have lost.

Was that what you learnt from your research?

That's right. I compared the results, talked to people, traveled to Bansang
and Basse, all the provinces and it just appeared to me, based on the
research, that there were a lot of people who voted that should not have
voted. Just changing the rules mid-stream, allowing those who had I.D cards
to vote created another problem of unaccountability.

You said 69 percent of Gambians live in abject poverty. Is that from your
research or from an official statistics?

It's official. The vice president, Isatou Njie-Saidy, said that at a press
conference jointly held by the UN and The Gambia government.

I have quoted it extensively in my research.

Isn't that alarming?

I think it is. Gambians today are poorer. There is an office at the Women's
Bureau calleed SPACO and they deal with poverty alleviation. Their latest
paper indicates that poverty has increased.

In fact, a paper published by the finance department and reported in The
Independent also indicates that in the last five years, the economy has
really been in shambles. This has heightened the poverty in the country and
I won't be surprised if the 69 percent has increased.

Are the APRC government to be blamed for these anomalies?

Part of it has to do with the lack of very solid policy trade work. Infact,
I think you have to put the blame on the government. If availed the
opportunity, Gambians will produce. But I cannot see how they could produce
in a vacuum where conditions are not really conducive. Why would I kill
myself producing groundnuts when I yield nothing at the end of the day?
President Jammeh is a good farmer, he alleges. That has to do with the fact
that he has the equipment, the capital. Give that to another Gambian and he
would do probably just as well.

What is this opposition force I have been hearing about in the media?

Many Gambians abroad are concerned about the state of things in this
country. The human rights violations and so on. I must say that things have
improved relative to the military period before the transition. However,
those in power are there for themselves. In Atlanta a few weeks ago, a
meeting was held and all the political parties were there including the
APRC. The idea was to bring them together. Hopefully, by 2006, they would
have their differences resolved, a fund would have been created, Save The
Gambia Fund, which I initiated together with the help of others. This is to
see what we can do to bring about peaceful change in The Gambia. It is going
to be difficult. Jammeh has overwhelming power and resources but I would
rather go for the democratic bit of it, especially when we see what has been
happening in Sierra Leone, Liberia and other parts of the continent.

Why is such a coalition so eager to see the back of Jammeh?

Well, the record speaks for itself. It is as simple as that.

Gambians are poorer today than they ever were before 1994. But some people
are richer than they ever were before 1994. The distribution of income is
skewered to favour a particular group. The weak, the poor, especially women
and children should be taken care of adequately. The amount of money that
comes into this country as aid, especially considering oil saga one and two,
are nowhere to be seen. That raises a lot of questions.

Couldn't Gambians abroad come home, and help steer The Gambia out of her
economic woes?

That would perhaps be the most ideal. But in terms of being pragmatic, that
is unfeasible. The assumption that you can only contribute to Gambia only
when you are in here is a fallacy. There are many in Gambia today who I
don't think are contributing at all.

Similarly, there are many Gambians abroad who are contributing as much to
the country even though they are not home. It is estimated that 80, 000
Gambians live abroad. They net about $50m annually in addition to supporting
family, friends, etc. In fact it is alleged, and I have found some
corroborating evidence, that were it not for Gambians abroad, most families
in this country would starve. I have also heard half seriously that if
Gambians abroad hold onto their allowances, the government could be in a
precarious situation. It would have been nice for all of us to be here but
the opportunities would be limited.

Gambians would decide again in 2006. Has this coalition put in place
modalities and thrashed out its difference to overwhelm Jammeh?

I don't think it would make sense to wait until the eleventh hour, as had
been the case in the past. We made a lot of mistakes in the last elections;
we didn't raise as much money as we could have. It is not an issue in
elections but it is also an important ingredient. It is going to be an
uphill battle to unseat any African president. When you are in power, you
happen to have opportunities that the opposition don't have. The Gambia is
no exception.

Realistically, would this coalition work?

It is hard to say. I am optimistic that if they are able to overcome their
differences and make some compromises, we may have a fighting chance to
influence a change in this country.

But is change not possible under the APRC government?

For now, I think they are the problem. The APRC have not performed. Unless
they begin to make decisive changes, they are the problem. There needs to be
some real stocktaking about where the country is and where it is going.
Until we begin to do that, we will find ourselves sinking further into the
abyss.

Have you met Jammeh personally?

I've met him at State House. I wanted to have an interview with him, which
never materialised.

What exactly were you trying to put across?

I wanted to know who Jammeh is. A lot of people don't. For this I will be
wearing another hat. There is me, the academic and me, the activist. If I
were to interview Jammeh, I would be doing so as a scholar - to really see
what makes him tick, what kind of a personality he is. I also did something
like that on ex President Sir Dawda.

It is plain that you are dribbling into politics. Why not stop the surface
scratching?

I'm not ruling it out. At some point, I'll like to come home and perhaps be
part of the political terrain. For now, I am more interested in the academic
realm - writing and publishing.

Don't you think The Gambia University needs you more than the University of
Miami?

A good question! I would like to come to the University of The Gambia where
my expertise may be of more impact than abroad. I have plans in that line.

What is currently holding you?

What's holding me is the level of freedom I'll have in The Gambia. Would I
have the academic freedom to say what I believe is the truth - to write and
publish as I see fit. I also sense deep-seated anti-intellectualism in the
current administration. So the conditions may not be right for me to come
home and work just yet.

Meaning you the university will not have you just yet?

I'm not ruling it out. I could also be teaching in the summer of next year.
It all depends what the opportunities are. The university is one amongst
many when I come home.

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]

To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface
at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~