"...I disagreed with Kabir, yet I never called him any names, nor
cussed him out. In fact, I was surprised when he got so angry with
me!...!

Ginny!

I had a visitor who didn't leave before a few moments ago and therefore could not respond.

You did not call me names, what you did was LIE about me, Which is worse? How many times did I have to tell you that I was not discussing Islam before you got it into your head? In English somebody who lies is termed a liar, thus why I called you one.

Misquoting me once I can understanding but INSISTING on putting words into my mouth even when I make several attempts to to clarify, I cannot and will not stand. You knew full well what you were doing.

Had you sent that e-mail you sent to me (privately) to the list instead, I may have responded differently but when you make dangerous accusation about me on the list and even seek off-the-list help to resonate your false claims and then write to me privately to continue the discussion, I personally would not choose any other way to respond than the way I did.

If your values tell you that being lied about in your face despite sevaral attempts to rectify (which can then no longer be called a mistake or miquote) is less offensive than being called a liar then maybe it is time to re-evaluate your values.

And when you wrote here saying I had written to you privately, I set the record straight about who wrote to who and then went on to quote the two words with which I responded. Even though I would have preferred not to do so, I felt I had to just for the record.


I remember vividly all those nasty things you said about Gambians in general on your Blog, yet I, and I am sure no other Gambian for that matter, ever held a grudge against you because of it but now here you come accusing me of generalising about Arabs, You cannot wipe out historical facts however hard you try.

Being White, you cannot convince me you know how it feels to be discriminated against because of your race. You may claim to sympathize but you cannot rightfully claim to feel... As they say: 'Who feels it knows it'.

I have lived among Arabs for some time, and if we Africans are not 'Kafir', we are 'Himaar', meaning donkey! When they know you understand what they are calling you, they try to pass it off as a joke.

The things I say I have said long, long before you converted to Islam and cultivated a love for Arabs and I dare say I am will continue to say those things no matter what, because it is the truth. Are all Arabs racist for that matter?

I will merely say that even in America there were Whites who fought vehemently for the abolition of slavery but does that mean that they were not racist at all? Don't assume, ask your your African-American friends if you have any.

Kabir.





amy jallow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Ms Quick,
An eye for an eye makes the whole wide world blind... Just because someone is stereotyping Arabs does not justify you stereotyping Gambians. You are wrong for doing that and no fancy rhetoric can camouflage your ugly assertion.
A few misguided Gambians on the net, insulting each other and engaging in non constructive criticism, does not necessarily represent the views or actions of the majority of Gambians.Gambians are like any other people we are all diverse in our ideals and thinking, and it is very unfair to use the wrongs of a small minority to judge us as a whole.It's just like someone who knows nothing , nothing about Americans and seeing the jerry springer show for the very first time, and all other recurring episodes, will they make the same assertion as you have...hmmm a point to ponder.
So what if this list represents Gambians, like I said it is not the view of every individual Gambian.Your attempt to justify your claim is very weak and does not hold much rationality at all. Just go back and read what you have written and think it over..... do that for a moment.... it seemed totally out of context to bring that up with brother kabir. Would you have said the same if you were arguing with a fellow white American? C'mon now every one argues and have disagreement of some sort but at the same time it does not warrant attacking the other persons race, nationality or ethinicity.If I were to judge Americans, europeans or any other ethnic group for that matter based on the wrong doings of some of its member then I will never again trust the people of that nation( I am taking about evilness and hypocrisy here......)so let's let sleeping dogs lie. This is so like history repeating itself, other races are so quick to judge blacks negatively.
As for the matter of "gambians who are trying to work together to better the political situation back in the Gambia"( as you so nicely put it)that does not concern you one bit....leave that to Gambians .You sister Ginny, cannot love the Gambia more than its sons and daughters so please leave the fixing up to us.
You call yourself a muslim, therefore you should also adhere to Islam basic requirements. It is not advisable to be quick in judging other people. Think deep before uttering anything damaging to another human being.As you are the one who kept on bringing Islam into everything then we are yet to see you act like a devout muslim.


Ginny Quick wrote:
Hello, it seems that, from what I've seen on both the Gambia-l and
Gambia-post, it seems that almost every time two people have a
disagreement, it almost always descends in to name-calling, or cussing
each other out, or some other such things. What I'm saying is, if
Gambians, on these lists do this, than what's to be said for Gambians
who are trying to work together to better the political situation back
in The Gambia? Inshallah, they are more mature than this?

Time and time again, I've seen disagreements flare up between two
people, and what happens is that the arguments descend into the
hurling of insults back at each other, simply because they disagreed
with each other.

I've seen people insult each other, call each other names, even say
disparaging things about the other person's friends and family. All
simply because they didn't agree with what the other person was
saying.

Maybe it's a maturity thing, I don't know. But if someone knew
nothing, or almost nothing, about The Gambia, and they were to come
across these lists, what would they think? How would Gambians be
perceived, as a whole, if all someone saw happening during a
contentious discussion was people insulting each other?

I disagreed with Kabir, yet I never called him any names, nor
cussed him out. In fact, I was surprised when he got so angry with
me!

If people can't even agree to disagree, and figure out how to
deal with the problems currently plaguing The Gambia, then how are
they going to be able to better themselves and The Gambia?

You are right, nationality should not have anything to do with
it, but when you have a list called Gambia-l and Gambia-post, which
are set up to deal with and discuss Gambian and related issues, and
the vast majority of the people on those lists are Gambian, it's a
little hard not to tie nationality to the discussions going on there.

As far as ugly remakrs go, if it's not OK to stereotype Gambians,
which it isn't, then why is it OK to stereotype Arabs and some
Muslims? Why is it OK, or seemingly so, to call people names, cussing
them out, insult them, yet no one says anything?

Yet I receive emails asking me to "explain myself"?



On 7/30/05, amy jallow wrote:
> " I'm starting to understand more
> clearly now, why Gambians cannot get themselves out of the political
> and economic quagmire in which they now find themselves..."
>
> I have been following your debate with interest, however as matured adults
> we all should be able to hold 'civilized' arguments without getting personal
> or insulting.
> However before I proceed I need to ask Ms Ginny what you meant by this
> quote.(above)
> What do you know about Gambians for you to make such an ugly remark?
> What has this got to do with Gambians, it is a debate between two
> individuals and should not have anything to do with nationality at all.
> You have some exlplaning to do sister, cause I am waiting.....
>
>
>
>
>
> Ginny Quick wrote:
> Hello...
>
> Ginny!
>
> Your hypocricy and double standards are becoming more and more
> apparent. After repeating for the hundreth time that I was talking
> about 'Arab and Latino
> Racism' and when you could not quote more mentioning Muslims you
> forward this garbage here accusing me of blaming Islam?
>
> How am I being hypocritical or how am I using double standards? the
> mistake I made was attributing quotes to Moore, that should have been
> atributed to Musselman. But I stand by my original assertions and
> reactions to the article. As far as how others view your opinion of
> the article, I could invite them to subscribe, but why would I do
> that, and subject them to the personal attacks to which you've decided
> to subject me to, just because I won't back down, and declare how evil
> the Arabs are.
>
> Tell that idiot to learn to read or subscribe her to the list so that
> I can respond to her directly and stop playing your hypocricy games.
>
>
> I find it funny that when people don't agree with you, and they stand
> their ground, and they don't back down, how some people will resort to
> name-calling and tarnishing of their character, just because they
> don't change their minds and begin to share those people's opinions.
> .
>
> What other response did you expect when you forward my piece to a buch
> of idiots and hypocrites like yourself than to accuse me of blaming
> Islam when I
> was talking baout Arab racism? And you call yourselves Muslims?
>
>
> I at least expected something more mature than this childish rant
> that you've decided to publish! I think the article, whether it was
> Moore doing the quoting, or Musselman, used the terms Arab and Muslim
> synonymously, and thus, it's difficult to conclude whether or not they
> were blaming Arab culture or Islam for the problems of racism in Latin
> America. There seemed to be an implicit demonization of Arabs and
> Muslims, for the problem of slavery and racism in Latin America, as if
> * all Arabs * or * all Muslims * had something to do with it, or had a
> hand in it. That's what I think. Now, you don't have to agree with
> me! But if you don't like or agree with my opinion then deal with it!
> Don't come here on this list and act like your character's been
> tarnished by a discussion and a series of messages!
>
> And as far as slavery goes, didn't Africans have slaves too? I
> mean, if we want to talk about slavery... Were Africans exempt from
> this institution too? I mean, didn't Africans participate in both the
> Arab and Trans-Atlantic slave trade as well? Or do we not want to
> talk about that? Maybe it's easier to just "blame the other guy", and
> villify and demonize them.
>
> If you keep up your nonesense I'll soon be removed from this list
> because I am not going to standby and watch you lie about me and I
> promise you I am not
> going to mince my words.
>
>
> Oh? How have I lied about you? What have I said? Your words have
> done the talking for you. And what's this about you're not going to
> minse your words? Am I supposed to be afraid of you, go running off
> into a corner somewhere? Am I supposed to be afraid of you
> unsubscribing from the list? Are you going to go behind the scenes
> and talk to the moderators and have me thrown off? And am I supposed
> to be afraid of that?
>
> It's funny how people want to talk about Jammeh, and how
> hypocritical he is, yet they turn around and do some of the same
> things, hmmm, let's see, like threatening other people. "I'm not
> going to minse my words?" Hmmm, so aain what does that mean? What
> are you going to do to me? I'm guessing next you're going to send
> Jammeh all the way over here to intimidate me, seeing as how now
> you're adopting some of his tactics of name-calling and threatening
> other people. And if I do end up getting thrown off the list, I'm not
> going to lose too much sleep over it. I'm starting to understand more
> clearly now, why Gambians cannot get themselves out of the political
> and economic quagmire in which they now find themselves...
>
> I can only guess what your private message to me, which I've not read
> yet, is going to say...
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/30/05, Amadu Kabir Njie wrote:
> > Ginny!
> >
> > Your hypocricy and double standards are becoming more and more apparent.
> > After repeating for the hundreth time that I was talking about 'Arab and
> > Latino Racism' and when you could not quote more mentioning Muslims you
> > forward this garbage here accusing me of blaming Islam?
> >
> > Tell that idiot to learn to read or subscribe her to the list so that I
> can
> > respond to her directly and stop playing your hypocricy games.
> >
> > What other response did you expect when you forward my piece to a buch of
> > idiots and hypocrites like yourself than to accuse me of blaming Islam
> when
> > I was talking baout Arab racism? And you call yourselves Muslims?
> >
> > If you keep up your nonesense I'll soon be removed from this list because
> I
> > am not going to standby and watch you lie about me and I promise you I am
> > not going to mince my words.
> >
> > Kabir.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ginny Quick wrote:
> > Hello, another response to this discussion from an African-American
> > Muslim woman. BTW, I'd wanted to get input from other African or
> > African-American Muslims on this issue, since Islam was brought into
> > the discussion. And I feel I'm straying into an area that I just
> > don't know that much about. The post follows:
> >
> > Ginny, I must say that your response to Kabir was excellent.
> > Obviously, Kabir wants to blame Islam and as you rightfully put it, no
> > matter what you say
> > or do, he will continue to blame Islam.
> >
> > The article I felt was weak in trying to make this connection. But
> > the blame Islam game is very popular today. If someone wear to ask me
> > as an African
> > American how do I feel about the fact that Muslims owned slaves, I
> > would say this...
> >
> > Name one race of people that did not practice one form of oppression
> > or slavery on another? In Europe, Europeans owned slaves but it was
> > called serfdom,
> > but you were tied to the land that you worked, you couldn't free
> > yourself of the debt that you owed the feudal lords and your family
> > would inherit the
> > same position that you were in. That's almost identical to Black
> > slaves in America where if your grandfather was a slave, you were
> > automatically a slave.
> >
> > When I read Kabir's comments, I kept thinking, "People who live in
> > glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Is he not aware of the fact
> > that Africans owned
> > other Africans? Is he willing to admit that some Africans sold other
> > Africans into slavery or that Arabs owned other Arabs. Kabir must
> > think that people
> > only owned slaves of races different than their own but that's not
> > true. Whether it is race, tribal status, religion, skin color, etc,
> > there has always
> > been a mechanism in power to keep one group on top and the other on
> > the bottom. Will he not address a very modern form of slavery called
> > sweatshop work
> > where people work for 14 hours a day non-stop, sometimes at gunpoint,
> > for 10 cents a day (or a week in some places). How does Islam play
> > into that?
> >
> > Every race of people at one time or another was the oppressor or the
> > oppressed and as much as Kabir may not realize this, Christian, Muslim
> > and Jewish Africans
> > and Arabs owned slaves. No one is free of this since slavery is an
> > institution that goes back into the days of early human history but if
> > he is content
> > to lay it all at the feet of Islam with these glaring facts before
> > him, well that's just denial.
> >
> > I am sorry if I sound so cynical and none of my annoyance is directed
> > at any sister on this group but rather at these people who want to
> > blame all the ills
> > of the world on Islam. Kabir and others would be better off studying
> > the history of Black Islamic figures like Bilah ibn Rabah, Nana
> > Asma'u, El-Hajj Malik
> > al-Shabazz, Muhammad Ali, Amadou Bamba, Usman dan Fodio, Umar Tal and
> > others (may God bless them all and keep them).
> >
> >
> > On 7/30/05, Amadu Kabir Njie wrote:
> > > Ginny,
> > >
> > > Thanks for making an attempt to quote Moore where he equated Arabs and
> > > Islam, but it seems to me that you are ascribing to him things that he
> > did
> > > not say at all.
> > >
> > > What you showed in quotes and ascribed to Moore are the words of Anson
> > > Musselman and not Moore. Where Anson Musselman directly quoted Moore
> the
> > > words are in quotation marks. Go back and read the article. The
> following
> > > are comments by Anson Musselman as preamble to the article:
> > >
> > > "...The Arab Model
> > >
> > > Moore in his youth set out to find what historical
> > > events led to the establishment of a racial hierarchy
> > > in Latin America, where race mixing is the norm, yet
> > > lightness and darkness of skin still matters. His
> > > findings led him to believe that the paradigms of race
> > > in Latin America are directly descended from the time
> > > when Arabs controlled the Iberian Peninsula, the
> > > homeland of Spanish and Portuguese colonialism in the
> > > Americas.
> > >
> > > Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> > > (today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> > > culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> > > By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> > > majority of Muslims from Iberia...."
> > >
> > > Then he goes on to quote Moore and note that this is in quotation marks
> > in
> > > the original piece:
> > > "I have had the privilege to have lived in Arab
> > > countries," Moore said, "and to be shocked by the
> > > extraordinary similarities to Latin America of
> > > structures of race in countries like Egypt. It was
> > > familiar ground. I was twenty-one, had just left Cuba.
> > > I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> > > how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> > > the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> > > Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> > > structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> > > a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> > > Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
> > >
> > > The rest of the piece consists of a series of comments by Anson
> Musselman
> > > himself and quotes from Moore.
> > > Even though the word Islam is mentioned, nowhere is it directly quoted
> > from
> > > Moore's.
> > >
> > > Again, the gist of Moore's lecture was 'Arab and Latino racism'.
> Period!
> > He
> > > was not even misquoted using Arab and Islam interchangeably, in fact he
> > was
> > > never quoted using the word 'Islam'.
> > >
> > > Since you keep harping about being compared to Yaya Jammeh I would be
> > glad
> > > if you can let me know who compared you with him. I wrote:
> > >
> > > "...For me one is not religious or God-fearing by merely wearing their
> > > religion on their sleeve. If it should be so, Yaya Jammeh would be one
> of
> > > the most religious people in the whole world, for he sports a rosary
> > > longer than that of Ayatolah Khomeni and dresses like the Sultan of
> > > Sokoto...."
> > >
> > > If you see yourself in this remark it's fine by me.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Kabir
> > >
> > >
> > > Ginny Quick wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Ginny Quick wrote:The following is the first quote where
> > > he mentions "Muslims".
> > >
> > > >Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> > > >(today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> > > >culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> > > >By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> > > >majority of Muslims from Iberia.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What is interesting to me, is that first, he mentions how "Arabs"
> > > conquered the Iberian Peninsula, but in the last sentence, says how
> > > "Muslims", were driven out by the Christian armies? Being that he
> > > seems to be using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably,
> > > who is the one confusing "Arab" with "Muslim". Or else, were there
> > > Arabs left over after the "Muslims" were driven out?
> > >
> > > Also he goes on to say:
> > >
> > > >I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> > > >how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> > > >the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> > > >Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> > > >structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> > > >a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> > > >Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
> > >
> > > While the vast majority of people in Egypt were Muslims, what is
> > > the point of bringing up Islam here? If he's only talking about Arab
> > > culture, why bring up religion? There seems to be an underlying
> > > assumption here, by him, not me, that Muslim = Arab, because he
> > > himself seems to be using the two words interchangeably, in at least
> > > one part of the article.
> > >
> > > >Moore sees the export of Arab-model slavery and race
> > > >relations to the New World by the Spanish and
> > > >Portuguese, who had absorbed it during the Muslim
> > > >occupation of Iberia.
> > >
> > > OK, again, he's using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim"
> > > interchangeably. First, he talks about the "Arab Model" of slavery,
> > > and then talks about the "Muslim occupation" of the Iberian Peninsula.
> > > If there was a difference between "Arab" and "Muslim", he should have
> > > pointed it out. Or, why not use the phrase "the Arab occupation"?
> > > Whatever the case,he did mention "Muslims" and "Islam", so I think my
> > > reading comprehension is quite good, thank you very much.
> > >
> > > "The conquest of America begins
> > > >when the Arabs are expelled from this part of the
> > > >world by Europeans."
> > >
> > > And here, he definitely confirms my point, that he's using the
> > > words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably, so I'd like to know who is
> > > getting the two terms confused? I don't think it's me! It's also
> > > interesting to know that he also uses the terms "Christian" and
> > > "European" interchangeably as well.
> > >
> > > Later on in the article, he goes on further to say that:
> > >
> > > In Arab
> > > >societies there are all sorts of ranks. There are
> > > >infidels, those who are believers, and the mulatto
> > > >category which is viewed as a ladder for ascension."
> > > >
> > >
> > > What is he talking about here? When he mentions "infidels", who
> > > is he talking about? Or Believers? Believers in what? Given that
> > > he's already used the term "Muslim" and Arab" interchangeably, I'd
> > > have to conclude that he's referring to Muslim belief?

=== message truncated ===

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