Hi Ginny!

Thanks for your response.

I do not know why you feel you have to defend Islam to anybody. I am not a convert to Islam, I was born into and brought up it and I have never felt obliged to defend Islam anywhere and I have always tried as far as practically possible, to distinguish between Islam on the one hand, and Arabs on the other. But it seems you and those of your school cannot make the distinction, and thus your dilemma!

Go back and read the original article by Moore; nowhere in it did he refer to Islam. All he talked about was Arabs and Arab culture, period!

When your friend responded she brought Islam into it; she wrote:

"...For one, you have to understand that the Arabs who controlled Spain
were African Arabs.  Many of them were dark skinned.  There really
wasn't the same degree of racism involved in that Muslim culture. And
despite the Arab involvement in the slave trade, the Muslims in Spain
did not have slaves.  However, the Spanish did already have African
slaves at that time, though not in great numbers.  One of the big
reasons that the Spanish ousted the Arabs was not only Christianity
vs. Islam, but was also a racial issue of the European Spanish not
liking that they were being ruled by blacks..."

First she made the lame attempt of trying to minimize the 'Arabness' of the occupationist of the Iberian Peninsula by claiming they were 'dark-skinned African Arabs' and then went on to defend Islam when the author said nothing at all about Islam. See what I mean?

This Arab-Islam thing exists only in your heads; there are those of us who make the distinction. Because it was to her article I was responding, I tried to show that even with her own mindset and her own point of departure in defending Islam when Arabs are held responsible, her position - it as it turned out yours too - was untenable.

With your Hijab and terrorism and all those other irrelevant issues you brought into it, I really don't care. The vast majority of Gambians are Muslims and the overwhelming majority of them don't wear the Hijab and that does not make them lesser Muslims in my eyes. Neither are they accused of terrorism because they don't go bombing people in the name of Islam.

The South Africans had a more genuine cause to fight for. They were fighting against the devil itself but they seldom brought religion into it. They were fighting for Freedom and Land and that's what they based their struggle on, against an enemy that was claiming biblical sanction for Apartheid.

For me one is not religious or God-fearing by merely wearing their religion on their sleeve. If it should be so, Yaya Jammeh would be one of the most religious people in the whole world, for he sports a rosary longer than that of Ayatolah Khomeni and dresses like the Sultan of Sokoto.

To me, religion is of the heart, of conscience and moral values. The easiest thing of all to do is the display of piety. But when questions of moral value arise you recognise the hypocricy at once, as on this issue we are debating. You don't seem to know on whose behalf you are arguing, Arabs or Islam! I assure you, you'll be more comfortable with your religious endeavours the day you are able to make a clear distinction between the two.

So I do not feel I have to ask any Christian to defend anything because they rarely go round wearing their Christianity on their sleeves. Besides, should you confront a Christian about the wrongs of their religion they are more wont to display some degree of flexibility and acknowledgement of those wrongs than Muslims who can't put it out of their heads that Arab does not equal Muslim.

Regards,

Kabir.



Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ginny Quick
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:59:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Racism- Latin America
To: [log in to unmask]

Hello, Kabir. The frustration for me is knowing that Islam prohibits
certain things, yet Muslims insist on doing them anyway. It sure
doesn't help us converts much, when we try to explain why we came to
Islam, when we always feel like we have to defend our choices.

It seems that there is a huge difference between Islam and
culture, yet sometimes the two can be so intermingled and entangled
that it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

Regarding Islam and slavery, yes, slavery existed during the time
of Islam. And if I understand things correctly, the goal was to
gradually end the practice of slavery, through the freeing of slaves.
Since, because as you said, slavery was such an intrinsic part of Arab
culture at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), that
an outright ban of slavery would not have been feasible.

The problem is, I guess, people found a justification for
continuing to hold slaves. I do not understand the whole slavery
issue in the context of Arab societies, and how it may have led to
racism or prejudice of darker-skinned people. I mean, I understand
the crux of the matter, however, when the subject of slavery is
brought up to me, vis-a-vis Islam, I'm not sure what to say about it.
For example, when people say "Muslims owned slaves, what do you think
about it"? And thereby, I'm forced to defend Islam, and my choice of
it. And to be honest, I don't know what to tell them. I can say that
slavery is wrong, but then there is always the "but Islam..."

And though I can sit and say how the goal of Islam was the
eventual irradication of slavery, it's just like the whole terrorism
argument, nothing you say is going to appease anyone who doesn't want
to be appeased, who is always going to find fault with whatever you
say.

To be quite honest, I get really tired of having to defend Islam,
and Muslims who lived centuries ago, who obviously, I don't know. I
can't defend their actions, because I didn't know them. I get really
tired of feeling as though I have to defend Islam and my choice of it
at every turn. If it's not the issue of women, it's slavery, if it's
not slavery, it's terrorism. If it's not terrorism it's hijab, if
it's not hijab it's "why do you have to fast". And on and on and on.

I feel that if you think that Islam is so bad and evil and
terrible, then don't follow it! But leave those of us who do alone!
The vast majority of us are just trying to live in peace and live the
best life that we can. We're not killing anyone, or abusing anyone,
or enslaving anyone, or anything like that!

Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself, I don't know! I just get
really tired of having to defend my choices from family, friends, and
total strangers who don't even know me at all!

I don't know why Muslims owned slaves, I don't know why Arabs
owned slaves, or why maybe other African people owned slaves! I don't
know! Why doesn't anyone ask the Christians why they owned slaves, or
why they engaged in the slave trade? I mean, there are Christian
Arabs too, and thus, it would seem they would be bound by the same
cultural paradigms as other Arabs, right? So why don't we ask them
the same questions, why does Islam have to covertly be tied to the
issue of slavery? I sure didn't hear Mr. Moore talk about Christian
Arabs, only Muslim ones. He is aware that there are Egyptian
Christians, right?

So my question is, what is the point of dragging Islam into this
discussion, and seemingly suggesting that Islam is the reason why
Arabs owned slaves? I mean, not all Arabs are Muslims, yet, this
article seems to suggest that.

Anyway, who am I? All I'm saying is, if you think Islam is so
bad, and Muslims and Arabs are so bad, then don't be a Muslim, and
don't associate with those terrible Arabs and Muslims, I guess. I
guess that's all I can tell you. And if people don't like racism and
prejudice, then try not to practice racism and prejudice on a group of
people, namely Arabs. If something is wrong, why then do people turn
right around and do that wrong to other people?

I don't mean to come across as harsh or sarcastic, but these
things really frustrate me! I don't know why some people do the
things that they do. All I know is what Islam itself says, and that's
all I can speak to. But I guess that's just not good enough for some.

Ginny





On 7/29/05, Ginny Quick wrote:
> Assalamu alaikum, a response from the group where I forwarded the
> message, in response to the article about the relationship between
> Arabs and Latin American racism. I find the response interesting.
> I'd like to know how Africans / African-Americans, who may be on this
> list, feel about the below message.
>
> My opinion, if it really matters much being that I'm not black,
> is that there seems to be a deep-seated animosity to Arabs, and to a
> lesser extent, Islam, in general, among some Africans, because of
> perceived wrongs done to Africans at some point in the past, and even
> continuing to this day. What is worse s that some Africans will
> maintain that Islam, in some way, had something to do with it, and
> I've even heard so-called African Muslims do this also. A case in
> point is when you bring up the situation in the Sudan, or the racial
> problems in Mauritania. It seems that, not only are their racial
> problems in Mauritania between black Africans and Arabs, but also,
> some will say that there is a system of slavery going on there as
> well.
>
> Anyway, there are some people who will say that Islam was as
> detrimental to Africans as Cchristianity was, and that's I think,
> getting into a whole other situaiton. Take care guys, hope I made
> some sense.
>
> Aaliyah
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Amadu Kabir Njie
> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:36:19 +0100
> Subject: Re: Racism- Latin America
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Hi!
>
> I see a huge time discrepancy in the lady's attempt to pass the buck
> as far as Arab responsibility for slavery is concerned.
>
> Arab occupation of the Iberian Peninsula began in the early 8th.
> century and though slavery existed there to a limited extend, it was
> not confined to only Blacks. There were both Black and White slaves as
> slavery was the comtemparary mode of relations of production before
> the serfdom, so colour was not a factor at the time in determining an
> enslaved group. The essence here is racist slavery.
>
> Arabs are known to hold slaves to this very day in Africa.
>
> Besides, even before the advent of Islam, Arabs were slave holders and
> on the birth of Islam, the religion sought to co-existed with slavery.
> The number of slaves that were freed because of the advent of Islam is
> almost negligible because slavery had become an intrinsic part of Arab
> culture.
>
> Due to the harsh conditions of the desert all well-to-do Arab families
> kept slaves in order to ease their day to day existence under such
> conditions. Even the Prophet's family was holding a slave girl at his
> birth.
>
> I think what the author of the article is trying to portray is the
> existence of slavery as an intrinsic part of a culture that became
> implanted in Spain and Portugal under Arab occupation. Western
> involvement in permanent slave holding came hundrends of years later
> in the 15th century.
>
> Like the author, I have lived among Arabs and know first-hand how
> racism has pervaded those societies. One may argue that Islam is
> against slavery but history tells us that much was not done in the
> name of Islam to free slaves and besides, Islam is what Muslims make
> it.
>
> I see no rationale in always trying to argue that Islam prohibits this
> and that when Muslims don't give a hoot about it.
>
> What the lady goes on to cite about Latino magazines and the racism
> they portrat just goes further in confirming Moore's arguement.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kabir.
>
>
> Ginny Quick wrote:
> Hello, all, below is a reply from a lady I know, who I think, can
> speak better about this issue, especially since hse is Latina and
> Muslim. Findher comments below:
>
> Wa alaikum salaam. Thanks for sharing this. I have to say
> though that this man is really offensive and some things are rather
> simplistic explanations. I don't deny that there is racism in Arab
> cultures too, nor am I saying that this didn't play a part in how
> things are in Latin America, but he is placing too much blame in one
> place.
>
> For one, you have to understand that the Arabs who controlled Spain
> were African Arabs. Many of them were dark skinned. There really
> wasn't the same degree of racism involved in that Muslim culture. And
> despite the Arab involvement in the slave trade, the Muslims in Spain
> did not have slaves. However, the Spanish did already have African
> slaves at that time, though not in great numbers. One of the big
> reasons that the Spanish ousted the Arabs was not only Christianity
> vs. Islam, but was also a racial issue of the European Spanish not
> liking that they were being ruled by blacks.
>
> Also, you have to remember that Christian Spain was a big slave
> culture. Alot of why there is darker and African blood in Latin
> America is because of CHRISTIAN slavery. Including that the Spanish
> Conquistadors brought their slaves with them to the New World and
> continued to treat them in a totally inferior way.
>
> Next, and probably the biggest factor, is the inherent racism of
> colonial rule in general. When the Spanish came over, they made it
> clear that as "white" men (and they were white, not Arab, as they had
> killed, enslaved or expelled most Arabs, Africans and Muslims from
> Spain by that time) and Christians, they were superior to the
> Indigenous Native American tribes already there. This is why one big
> problem in Latin America is how people look down still on the Indios
> and don't want to admit that they all are products of mixing with the
> Indios.
>
> Later, other European cultures became popular in Latin America.
> Italian background is a big part of Argentinian blood lines, French
> culture was very cool in Mexico, Jews escaping Nazi Germany settled
> in many Latin American countries, Germans and Irish also have
> pockets. And of course, there is heavy Spanish and Portuguese
> settlement in the area. These European cultures in general
> perpetuated that Anglo thinking, culture and bloodlines were the
> best, the dominant, the superior. This unfortunately has been passed
> down in generations.
>
> Unfortunately, the truth is that in many cultures, paler skin and
> more European features are considered more beautiful. This is true
> in India, China, Latin America, parts of Africa, so many places.
> Darker skin has become synonymous with the "workers" under the sun,
> the peasants and common people. White skin is a sign of refinement
> and not having to engage in back-breaking labor. Arab cultures may
> have had their share in this myth, but they are hardly the
> originators or sole perpetrators of it.
>
> On a more personal commentary, I would like to add that this author
> is right that there are serious race issues in Latin America. I used
> to subscribe (for a few years) to one of the most respected American
> magazines for Hispanic women, Latina. Basically, what finally
> totally turned me off on it was that although they talked alot about
> how Latinas come in all colors and sizes, they didn't walk the walk.
> They only used pale skinned and size 6 models. Even when they
> specified the different countries that women in the magazine came
> from, they still were all of basically one form. There were no
> really short Indio women, no larger women (which most of the Latinas
> I know tend towards), no dark Indio or African skin, no kinky hair.
> Even the truly white latinas (yes, there are blonde haired, blue eyed
> latinas) were not featured. Every month they did makeovers on four
> Latinas of different backgrounds. All of them would be asking for
> a "sexy" way to dress to hide "flaws" like wide hips or short legs or
> whatever. But even these real women didn't look like real Latinas I
> know - none of my family or friends! And their so-called flaws were
> offensive. If having a size 5 body constitutes wide hips, what does
> that say for the rest of us who are all at least size 14? My husband
> saw the magazine and found it offensive because of the lack of
> different colors, sizes and culturs within it. Besides this, the
> magazine also perpetuated the "Latina as sex object" that I hate.
> They talked alot about Latina women having the power and rights, and
> being equal to men, but it seemed to be still pretty much "you have
> the right to go around half naked and be proud of your body, you have
> power because of your sex appeal" kind of thinking. OTOH, they did
> have a really nice article a while ago on Latina converts to Islam.
>
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