To me there are two kinds of murderers those of the flesh and those of the spirit one cannot be without the other! naturally impossible! The solution is this! Give a physical murderer his spirit back then he will stop killing he has no chioce? or that depends on the givers means? Give a spiritual murderer his physical reality and he will stop the cruelty altogether!Talking about kissing the floor? Nah!! The victims are cut in the cross fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >From: kalilu camara <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list ><[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia > - Reply To Kebba Dampha >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:05:51 GMT > >"When the solution is simple God is working" Albert Eistein! E=mcc > >>From: Dampha Kebba <[log in to unmask]> >>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list >><[log in to unmask]> >>To: [log in to unmask] >>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia >> - Reply To Kebba Dampha >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:59:50 EDT >> >>Buharry, I don't have the the desire now nor a whole weekend to respond to >>your gibberish. When I do, you will swallow everything you said in this >>posting in your subsequent posting. I realized that in this posting, you >>began to back track about your "challenge". When I made it abundantly >>clear >>to you the pettiness of your "challenge", you narrowed it down to a yes or >>no issue. You must really have time in your hands to write all those >>sentences just to solicit a yes or no answer from us. Yeah I commended you >>in the past, together with hamjatta (whom i still respect a lot despite >>some >>of our differences) Dr. Touray, Dr. Saine and others to show you that this >>struggle has room for everyone. For lack of a better word, I attacked you >>when you questioned the commitment and intelligence of the Gambian >>electorate and people that advocate the violent removal of Yaya. And I >>will >>attack any one who does that. The pressure you talked about in this piece >>seems to refer to the future. Whereas the pressure you were talking about >>the other day was referring to the past. Clarify. For your information >>also, >>Darboe and co were released by a court in Banjul and not in Basse. The >>Americans even dowplayed their presence in Basse saying that it was merely >>to observe what was going on. Their prensence would not have stopped >>Baabaa >>Jobe. To conclude for now, I will just give you a simple statistic viz, on >>April 10 and 11 when diplomacy (from the students) met force from Yaya, 15 >>children lost their lives. During the UDP ambush when force met force, one >>Yaya supporter lost his life. It should not take a rocket scientist to >>decipher this one. Watch this space. When I find time, I will show you >>again >>how you are fighting a losing battle. Before I forget, reread my earlier >>postings. I never asked you to join me and others to overthrow Yaya >>violently. What I was asking for was debate about what to do once Yaya was >>gotten rid of. I have said this a number of times. I wonder why it escaped >>you. Yeah I was frustrated that some could not see the subtle difference >>in >>what I was trying to say. But I was not irate and I do not hold any hard >>feeling against people for not contributing to that debate when I called >>for >>their contributions. Many people, including yourself contributed >>indirectly >>to the debate. Am happy with that. If you look closely at one of the >>memorandum I wrote, I called for the registration of Gambians living >>abroad >>to vote in presidential elections before it was brough up again by Dr. >>Saine >>and you volunteered to write something about it. I was happy to see that >>contribution eventhough it was not done in response to my call. I would >>not >>even address (now or later) your insinuation about me being a dictator >>like >>Yaya. You contradicted yourself in your own piece because you said that I >>come here to push some ideas. If I were a dictator, I would not come here >>to >>discuss issues. A few days ago, Saul registered his disagreement with my >>counseling Ousainou Darboe to go underground. Did I become irate and >>impose >>my ideas on Saul? I respectfully explained my reasoning and then agreed >>with >>his position. There are tons of things that go on here and other forums >>that >>I do not agree with. But I do not go around imposing my will on people. >>KB >> >> >>>From: MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <[log in to unmask]> >>>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list >>><[log in to unmask]> >>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>Subject: Re: A challenge to those advocating violent change in The Gambia >>> - Reply To Kebba Dampha >>>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:50:10 +0200 >>> >>>Hi Kebba! >>> Thank you for taking the time to respond to my >>>posting. >>>Before going further, I need to register the fact that out of respect not >>>only for myself, the members of the L and you, I shall ignore the context >>>in >>>which you used some words. I shall also for the benefit of carrying out a >>>healthy debate refuse to debate in a manner that would negatively impact >>>on >>>the serious and important topic that we are dealing with. Those things >>>aside, please allow me to respond to some of the issues you raised. You >>>wrote: >>> >>>"Buharry, are you really serious when you ask us to come to Gambia_L and >>>tell the whole world how we are going to overthrow Yaya?" >>> >>>Where did I ask you to go into the mechanics of how you are going to >>>remove >>>Yaya? What I asked was whether you had anything apart from empty rhetoric >>>to >>>convince people to rally behind you. A simple yes would have sufficed >>>because I am not in any position to check the veracity of your >>>statements. >>>You can tell me that you have 100 million Dollars stashed somewhere, >>>piles >>>of arms and ammunition piled somewhere and whatever you want or you can >>>tell >>>me that you have absolutely nothing. I would only have to take your word >>>for >>>it because I am not in any position to verify what you say. Like I wrote >>>earlier, the beauty of the cyber identity is that one can be anyone or >>>possess whatever one wants. I would not expect you to detail how you are >>>going to overthrow Yaya on this very L where all kinds of government >>>agencies are subscribed. That would not be too bright of me now. Would >>>it? >>> >>>You also wrote: >>>"Childish challenges will not also prompt us to go to Gambia unprepared. >>>So, >>>save yourself. We have nothing to prove to you or your likes." >>> >>>Like I stated in the beginning, I shall not respond to this in a way that >>>would derail the debate or in a way that would display disrespect on my >>>part. You have nothing to prove to my likes or me? Have I become >>>different >>>just because I posted something that once differs from your point of >>>view? >>>Just a few weeks ago you wrote: "Buharry,Thank you very much for your >>>contributions". So now I have become "those people"? If you have nothing >>>to >>>prove to my likes and me why did you come to Gambia-L to propagate your >>>cause? There are hundreds of my likes listed here. Why have you time and >>>again solicited contributions from members to draw a program for your >>>cause? >>>Why did you get irate when the hundreds of my likes refused to contribute >>>because of our conviction that violence isn't the only way to bring about >>>change, that there are other methods that should be explored to the >>>fullest >>>but have not as yet been? >>> >>>You wrote: >>>"What kind of pressure on Yaya are you talking about?" >>> >>>There are endless varieties of pressures that can be brought to bear. In >>>"Peace through Sanctions?" Recommendations for German UN Policy, Manford >>>Kulsessa and Dorethee Starck list the following types of sanctions most >>>of >>>which can in my opinion be effectively applied to The Gambia. The types >>>of >>>sanctions are: >>>- Diplomacy where there is closure or a reduction of diplomatic missions, >>>ban on entry of officials or exclusion from international organizations. >>>- Transport where there is a ban on air, sea and suspension of rail and >>>road >>>traffic. >>>- Communications where post and telecommunications are suspended. >>>- Development co-operation where post and telecommunications are >>>suspended. >>>- Military where military co-operation is terminated and an arms embargo >>>is >>>instituted. >>>- Finance where there is a ban on foreign assets and a ban on financial >>>transfers. >>>- Trade where embargos and boycotts are instituted. >>>- Criminal justice where criminal proceedings are instituted against >>>individuals in international tribunals. >>> >>>David Cortright and George A. Lopez point out in Carrots, Sticks and >>>Co-operation: Economic Tools of Statescraft how the US maintained an >>>"outer >>>wall" of sanctions by among other things blocking Belgrade's membership >>>in >>>international organizations. In Nigeria under Abacha, the US banned all >>>arms >>>sales to the country and expanded its ban on US visas for the junta and >>>its >>>supporters. The EU imposed an arms embargo; travel restrictions and a >>>sports >>>boycott while the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group suspended it from >>>membership. In the same book, the authors discussed how an Institute for >>>International Economics study shows that of all the types of sanctions >>>available, financial sanctions were the most effective. Measures such as >>>"the freezing of foreign assets, the cancellation of debt rescheduling, >>>the >>>withholding of credits and loans, and restrictions on travel, commerce >>>and >>>communications" were shown to be very effective in bringing a regime to >>>its >>>knees especially when that state is weak. So you see Mr. Dampha, there >>>are >>>various types of pressure that can be brought to bear. >>> >>>You also wrote: >>>"What would you do if he rigs the next elections?" >>>The art of applying and maintaining pressure is to be both proactive and >>>reactive. Proactive in that one has to have a hands-on approach and >>>thoroughly analyse the situation and predict what the opponent is going >>>to >>>do. That way one can put measures into place to discourage him/her from >>>doing it. Reactive in that one needs to quickly react when the feared >>>situation arises preferably with contingency measures that were already >>>designed. Pressure can therefore be brought against Yaya before the >>>elections to ensure that the elections are fair and regulated and >>>pressure >>>can be brought if he rigs the elections. Remember the short travel advice >>>of >>>the British and the impact it had on the tourism sector? >>> >>>You further wrote: >>>"Well we would rather not put the Gambians in that position in the first >>>place." >>>Wow! Thanks for your concern. However, I believe that the alternative you >>>are proposing has the potential to put them in a far worse position than >>>what you are rejecting. >>> >>>You also wrote: >>>"So am being led to the conclusion that some of you people have been >>>blinded >>>by your >>>egos. You perhaps had previously gone on record saying that you would >>>never >>>support violence. So because of that, things that should be glaring >>>before >>>your eyes would read something else to you. Get off your high horses and >>>join the struggle." >>> >>>Excuse me, Sir! Egos? High horses? C'mon, man. Whose ego is getting the >>>best >>>of whom here? Can you understand that some of us truly believe in a >>>non-violent solution to Gambia's problems? Is it strange to you? Are you >>>demanding that we see things exactly as you do? Isn't that a bit too >>>dictatorial on your part sir? I reverse your contention that I get off my >>>high horses back to you. I think you should come down to the ground and >>>join >>>the rest of us who know that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. >>>That is the basis of democracy, the democracy you are planning to >>>institute >>>in The Gambia. Who told you that I am not in the struggle? Just because I >>>do >>>not propagate violence does not mean that I am not in the struggle. The >>>struggle is a multi-faceted enterprise. Do you truly believe that I would >>>stick to a position just for the sake of being afraid of changing it >>>because >>>people would see me in a different light? C'mon sir. I flatteringly like >>>to >>>think of myself as a dynamic, humble and willing-to-learn person. I have >>>many a time even on this L changed my position because someone put in >>>better >>>arguments. Accepting the superiority of other ideas when they are is the >>>essence of learning and I am a learner. >>> >>>You also wrote: >>>"You should know about the struggles of ANC. Did Nelson Mandela, Oliver >>>Thambo and the senior Mbeki just sit down and wait for nonexistent >>>election >>>victories or put all their faith in the hands of the international >>>community? No. They bombed the South African government. " >>> >>>I know not only about the struggles of the ANC but that of South Africa. >>>You >>>see I like to consider myself to be a Pan-Africanist. I considered the >>>ANC >>>a >>>sell out during my college days because of their approach. I was more >>>impressed by the PAC's "one settler, one bullet" approach. I read so many >>>books about the South African struggle. One of my best friends in college >>>was the son of Malinga, one of the founders of the PAC who died in >>>prison. >>>I >>>was very much against Mandela's concessionary stance when he became >>>president but after analysing the situation, I was converted. I realised >>>that Mandela's stance was more practical and was better for South Africa >>>because another approach would have meant bloodshed and unwanton >>>destruction. For you to truly believe that South Africa got rid of >>>Apartheid >>>ONLY because the ANC was bombing targets within South Africa is truly >>>amazing. Do you underestimate the impact that sanctions had? External >>>sanctions coupled with the civil resistance campaign of the UDF helped to >>>bring about sweeping political transformation. >>> >>>You wrote: >>>"Oliver Thambo was in exile running the ANC machinery.Did South Africans >>>say >>>that they were not going to listen to his calls for self-defense because >>>he >>>did not live in South Africa? Did they say that they were only going to >>>listen to people like Desmond Tutu or sell-outs like Buthelezi? So my >>>friend, it is not about where you live, it is about what you bring to the >>>table." >>> >>>The ANC machinery was already in place before he went into exile. I >>>believe >>>that one can make a positive impact wherever one is. One can also make >>>devastating prescriptions knowing fully well that one is sheltered from >>>the >>>repercussions. If you truly believe that you can make a positive >>>contribution from wherever you are without jeopardising our country, >>>power >>>to you. >>> >>>You also wrote: >>>"Not with our lives as you might have preferred. We tried diplomatic and >>>constitutional means and they did not work." >>> >>>Mr. Dampha, let me state here that I am NOT your enemy. I would not want >>>you >>>to lose your life. You are a Gambian like all other Gambians and it is >>>because of my concern for Gambians that I am concerned about the >>>repercussions of the approach you preach. I do not want violence in my >>>country because violence would lead to loss of lives and that is the last >>>thing I want. Could you please furnish us with the diplomatic and >>>constitutional means you tried so that they can be established to be >>>unworkable? >>> >>>You wrote: >>>"I contribute more than you do in trying to make sure that the culprits >>>of >>>the massacres face justice." >>> >>>Power to you, my brother. Who said that I contribute more than you do? >>>This >>>is not a competition. I am sincerely glad to learn that "you are doing a >>>lot >>>to make sure that the culprits of the massacres face justice." That is >>>what >>>I also want and to see that you have contributed to this cause truly >>>makes >>>me happy. >>> >>>You further wrote: >>>"What we have a problem with is people that limit our options or give >>>priority to options >>>that are clearly unworkable." >>> >>>So you have a problem with people having a different approach to a >>>problem? >>>You call Yaya a dictator. Why? Isn't it because he too has a problem with >>>people who have different approaches? >>> >>>You wrote: >>>"Like I said yesterday (keep repeating myself. But I will gladly do so >>>until >>>it sinks into your heads)" >>> >>>Please, please do. Some of us, especially me, are not that clever. So you >>>might definitely have to keep hammering home your point before it sinks. >>>I >>>was not blessed to be as clever as you. >>> >>>You wrote: >>>"Why don't you want to believe that if a bloodless coup can be pulled in >>>1994 another one can be pulled in 2000?" >>> >>>Let's make a deal here. I believe that a bloodless coup can be pulled >>>off. >>>Do you believe that one or more factors can interfere with your >>>"bloodless >>>coup" and turn it into a disaster? Things can always go wrong even in the >>>most planned of events. >>> >>>You wrote: >>>"If you were attacked by a wild animal today and you have a loaded gun in >>>your hand, would you opt to extend your hand to it in the name of >>>diplomacy >>>or would you blow its brains out?" >>> >>>That depends. If it happens in a vacuum, that is, I am alone with the >>>animal; I would gladly blow its brains out. However, as I said earlier, >>>events you are prescribing won't happen in vacuum and there are a lot of >>>people who might get hurt in the process. The situation by the way is not >>>as >>>acute as to leave the options you painted in your scenario. There are >>>still >>>some options that can be explored. >>> >>>You further wrote: >>>"If your principles of non-violence are so dear to your heart that you do >>>not want to join us, fine with us. But please do not demoralize our >>>people >>>back home by telling them that the ballot box is the only means Yaya can >>>be >>>removed from office." >>> >>>Why can't you believe that I also want the best thing to happen to The >>>Gambia? We might have different prescriptions for solving our country's >>>problems but that does not make us enemies. The solution to The Gambia's >>>problems as mentioned earlier is multi-pronged and all on the various >>>fences >>>should not consider each other enemies. Where did I say that the ballot >>>box >>>is the only way of removing Yaya? >>> >>>You further wrote: >>>". people like me have recently called upon the UDP supporters to arm >>>themselves and not let their guard down during the coming campaign >>>season. >>>We are not calling upon you to leave your cozy existence in Europe to go >>>fight in The Gambia neither are we calling upon your unarmed civilian >>>brothers to go and confront Yaya." >>> >>>I ask you where those people are going to get the arms. I further ask you >>>where they are going to get licences for those arms because you surely >>>wouldn't want them to face heavily armed security personnel with stones, >>>sticks etc.? The civilian UDP supporters you are calling upon to be armed >>>and confrontational are my fellow Gambians and brothers and sisters. For >>>your information, I am not living a cosy existence. I am hustling man, >>>like >>>most Gambians abroad. >>> >>>You also wrote: >>>"What do you want us to tell the UDP? To lie down and let BaaBaa Jobe >>>walk >>>all over them? Or like some of your heroes, pretend that nothing >>>undeserving >>>happened to the UDP entourage? Or like others, pretend that this was not >>>orchestrated by Yaya and his bunch of bandits? We would continue to >>>advocate >>>the removal of Yaya through violent means until pacifists like you come >>>up >>>with better means of removing him. If you are waiting for your heroes on >>>the >>>ground to advocate the removal of Yaya through violent means, then you >>>will >>>never see that and therefore you will never be a convert." >>> >>>No. No. No. Who is pretending that nothing happened to the UDP? Who is >>>talking about letting Baba Jobe walk over the UDP? The very presence of >>>the >>>American and UK ambassadors in the area where the UDP entourage was held >>>played a significant part in their release. Pressure, man, pressure. If >>>pressure is strategically courted and applied, the results might amaze >>>you. >>>BTW, who are my heroes on the ground? >>> >>>You also wrote: >>>"The way you help the situation, is to do like Colly, Saul , Matarr and >>>others and expose Baabaa Jobe and Yaya for the cowards they are and urge >>>UDP >>>to be more vigilant." >>> >>>That is not the only way to help the situation. That is one of various >>>ways >>>to help and I say thanks to those mentioned for providing the information >>>because it is really revealing. I am not saying that the UDP should not >>>be >>>vigilant. What I am saying is that the UDP should not send 10 hens to >>>fight >>>100 lions. >>> >>>You finally wrote: >>>".send a silly petition to the international community." >>> >>>Thanks for sharing your views on how you see our petition. However, that >>>petition, the demonstrations around the world, the action of people on >>>the >>>ground played an important part in bringing the events of April to the >>>attention of the international community. There you see, pressure sir. >>>Thanks and sorry for such a long posting. >>> >>>Buharry. >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L >>>Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>________________________________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L >>Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L >Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/gambia-l.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------