Amadou

Sabari, Sabari

Habib

>From: Amadu Kabir Njie <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list              <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Racism- Latin America
>Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:32:11 +0100
>
>Ginny!
>
>Your hypocricy and double standards are becoming more and more apparent. After repeating for the hundreth time that I was talking about 'Arab and Latino Racism' and when you could not quote more mentioning Muslims you forward this garbage here accusing me of blaming Islam?
>
>Tell that idiot to learn to read or subscribe her to the list so that I can respond to her directly and stop playing your hypocricy games.
>
>What other response did you expect when you forward my piece to a buch of idiots and hypocrites like yourself than to accuse me of blaming Islam when I was talking baout Arab racism? And you call yourselves Muslims?
>
>If you keep up your nonesense I'll soon be removed from this list because I am not going to standby and watch you lie about me and I promise you I am not going to mince my words.
>
>Kabir.
>
>
>
>
>Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Hello, another response to this discussion from an African-American
>Muslim woman. BTW, I'd wanted to get input from other African or
>African-American Muslims on this issue, since Islam was brought into
>the discussion. And I feel I'm straying into an area that I just
>don't know that much about. The post follows:
>
>Ginny, I must say that your response to Kabir was excellent.
>Obviously, Kabir wants to blame Islam and as you rightfully put it, no
>matter what you say
>or do, he will continue to blame Islam.
>
>The article I felt was weak in trying to make this connection. But
>the blame Islam game is very popular today. If someone wear to ask me
>as an African
>American how do I feel about the fact that Muslims owned slaves, I
>would say this...
>
>Name one race of people that did not practice one form of oppression
>or slavery on another? In Europe, Europeans owned slaves but it was
>called serfdom,
>but you were tied to the land that you worked, you couldn't free
>yourself of the debt that you owed the feudal lords and your family
>would inherit the
>same position that you were in. That's almost identical to Black
>slaves in America where if your grandfather was a slave, you were
>automatically a slave.
>
>When I read Kabir's comments, I kept thinking, "People who live in
>glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Is he not aware of the fact
>that Africans owned
>other Africans? Is he willing to admit that some Africans sold other
>Africans into slavery or that Arabs owned other Arabs. Kabir must
>think that people
>only owned slaves of races different than their own but that's not
>true. Whether it is race, tribal status, religion, skin color, etc,
>there has always
>been a mechanism in power to keep one group on top and the other on
>the bottom. Will he not address a very modern form of slavery called
>sweatshop work
>where people work for 14 hours a day non-stop, sometimes at gunpoint,
>for 10 cents a day (or a week in some places). How does Islam play
>into that?
>
>Every race of people at one time or another was the oppressor or the
>oppressed and as much as Kabir may not realize this, Christian, Muslim
>and Jewish Africans
>and Arabs owned slaves. No one is free of this since slavery is an
>institution that goes back into the days of early human history but if
>he is content
>to lay it all at the feet of Islam with these glaring facts before
>him, well that's just denial.
>
>I am sorry if I sound so cynical and none of my annoyance is directed
>at any sister on this group but rather at these people who want to
>blame all the ills
>of the world on Islam. Kabir and others would be better off studying
>the history of Black Islamic figures like Bilah ibn Rabah, Nana
>Asma'u, El-Hajj Malik
>al-Shabazz, Muhammad Ali, Amadou Bamba, Usman dan Fodio, Umar Tal and
>others (may God bless them all and keep them).
>
>
>On 7/30/05, Amadu Kabir Njie wrote:
> > Ginny,
> >
> > Thanks for making an attempt to quote Moore where he equated Arabs and
> > Islam, but it seems to me that you are ascribing to him things that he did
> > not say at all.
> >
> > What you showed in quotes and ascribed to Moore are the words of Anson
> > Musselman and not Moore. Where Anson Musselman directly quoted Moore the
> > words are in quotation marks. Go back and read the article. The following
> > are comments by Anson Musselman as preamble to the article:
> >
> > "...The Arab Model
> >
> > Moore in his youth set out to find what historical
> > events led to the establishment of a racial hierarchy
> > in Latin America, where race mixing is the norm, yet
> > lightness and darkness of skin still matters. His
> > findings led him to believe that the paradigms of race
> > in Latin America are directly descended from the time
> > when Arabs controlled the Iberian Peninsula, the
> > homeland of Spanish and Portuguese colonialism in the
> > Americas.
> >
> > Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> > (today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> > culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> > By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> > majority of Muslims from Iberia...."
> >
> > Then he goes on to quote Moore and note that this is in quotation marks in
> > the original piece:
> > "I have had the privilege to have lived in Arab
> > countries," Moore said, "and to be shocked by the
> > extraordinary similarities to Latin America of
> > structures of race in countries like Egypt. It was
> > familiar ground. I was twenty-one, had just left Cuba.
> > I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> > how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> > the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> > Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> > structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> > a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> > Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
> >
> > The rest of the piece consists of a series of comments by Anson Musselman
> > himself and quotes from Moore.
> > Even though the word Islam is mentioned, nowhere is it directly quoted from
> > Moore's.
> >
> > Again, the gist of Moore's lecture was 'Arab and Latino racism'. Period! He
> > was not even misquoted using Arab and Islam interchangeably, in fact he was
> > never quoted using the word 'Islam'.
> >
> > Since you keep harping about being compared to Yaya Jammeh I would be glad
> > if you can let me know who compared you with him. I wrote:
> >
> > "...For me one is not religious or God-fearing by merely wearing their
> > religion on their sleeve. If it should be so, Yaya Jammeh would be one of
> > the most religious people in the whole world, for he sports a rosary
> > longer than that of Ayatolah Khomeni and dresses like the Sultan of
> > Sokoto...."
> >
> > If you see yourself in this remark it's fine by me.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Kabir
> >
> >
> > Ginny Quick wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ginny Quick wrote:The following is the first quote where
> > he mentions "Muslims".
> >
> > >Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> > >(today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> > >culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> > >By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> > >majority of Muslims from Iberia.
> > >
> >
> >
> > What is interesting to me, is that first, he mentions how "Arabs"
> > conquered the Iberian Peninsula, but in the last sentence, says how
> > "Muslims", were driven out by the Christian armies? Being that he
> > seems to be using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably,
> > who is the one confusing "Arab" with "Muslim". Or else, were there
> > Arabs left over after the "Muslims" were driven out?
> >
> > Also he goes on to say:
> >
> > >I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> > >how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> > >the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> > >Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> > >structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> > >a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> > >Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
> >
> > While the vast majority of people in Egypt were Muslims, what is
> > the point of bringing up Islam here? If he's only talking about Arab
> > culture, why bring up religion? There seems to be an underlying
> > assumption here, by him, not me, that Muslim = Arab, because he
> > himself seems to be using the two words interchangeably, in at least
> > one part of the article.
> >
> > >Moore sees the export of Arab-model slavery and race
> > >relations to the New World by the Spanish and
> > >Portuguese, who had absorbed it during the Muslim
> > >occupation of Iberia.
> >
> > OK, again, he's using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim"
> > interchangeably. First, he talks about the "Arab Model" of slavery,
> > and then talks about the "Muslim occupation" of the Iberian Peninsula.
> > If there was a difference between "Arab" and "Muslim", he should have
> > pointed it out. Or, why not use the phrase "the Arab occupation"?
> > Whatever the case,he did mention "Muslims" and "Islam", so I think my
> > reading comprehension is quite good, thank you very much.
> >
> > "The conquest of America begins
> > >when the Arabs are expelled from this part of the
> > >world by Europeans."
> >
> > And here, he definitely confirms my point, that he's using the
> > words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably, so I'd like to know who is
> > getting the two terms confused? I don't think it's me! It's also
> > interesting to know that he also uses the terms "Christian" and
> > "European" interchangeably as well.
> >
> > Later on in the article, he goes on further to say that:
> >
> > In Arab
> > >societies there are all sorts of ranks. There are
> > >infidels, those who are believers, and the mulatto
> > >category which is viewed as a ladder for ascension."
> > >
> >
> > What is he talking about here? When he mentions "infidels", who
> > is he talking about? Or Believers? Believers in what? Given that
> > he's already used the term "Muslim" and Arab" interchangeably, I'd
> > have to conclude that he's referring to Muslim belief?
> >
> > As far as the points he makes regarding race relations
> > themselves, I have no argument with what he has to say about that, in
> > and of itself. It's the seeming way that he uses "Arab" and "Muslim"
> > as if they mean the same thing, that I think I, and the other lady,
> > whose comments I posted, had a problem with. I don't think either one
> > of us were trying to insinuate that "Arab" and "Muslim" meant the same
> > thing, or that we are confusing the two. In fact, it seems to be Mr.
> > Moore who is doing so. Not us!
> >
> > As far as the other "irrelevant" issues, I'd consider them "side
> > issues", rather than "Irrelevant ones". Given the direction the
> > discussion was going, or I should say, the direction that I chose to
> > take the discussion, I feel the issues were relevant, else I'd not
> > have brought them up.
> >
> > I still think it's funny that I've been compared to Jammeh, not
> > only because of any outward religiosity or piety on my part, but also
> > because, since I didn't understand the article, in the same way that
> > you did, that my intelligence, comprehension, and even my honesty has
> > been called into question.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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>
>--
>Visit my blog at: http://GinnysThoughts.blogspot.com/
>
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