You are wholly right Yes, lies, propaganda and obfuscation is no bed of roses. Those who work at the Ministry of Overseas development / old Colonial Office studied the Roman Empire…... I notice that your reply was on my screen almost a soon as I had pushed the send button. How did you do that- by anticipating no substance coming your way from me? I am not arguing a position or stuck in one. I am looking for a solution – from you, that will be acceptable to Mugabe and those who he will be negotiating with. I am very much interested in what you and others have to say and listen very attentively. I have not “ debunked” anything that I have said previously. OK Mugabe has had 17 if you will – years - enough time for three terms as president. Of course he has the Constitutional means. Even at a negotiation you ought not underestimate anyone and when he says sign here, read the fine print. I read the entire 2003 interview when you posted it a week ago and it’s clear, but the situation has changed since 2003 – the economy has deteriorated to the point where Mugabe can go on sticking to his guns until the people are pushed into embracing an alternative to their suffering – and this means a compromise. Did you read this: http://zimbabweoutpostoftyranny.typepad.com/zimbabwe_outpost_of_tyran/2007/04/towards_a_negot_1.html We may leave this for a while and see what turns up the week after next? > > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]> > Date: 2007/04/22 sö PM 03:58:38 CEST > To: [log in to unmask] > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions > > Do you really read anything of substance on the Zimbabwe crisis beyond the > propaganda? > > What preparation? ZANU-PF prepared for more than ten years, they were at > least more prepared than their British counterparts from the looks of > things. > > The reason why I asked if you read anything of substance on Zimbabwe is > statements like this: > > "...I simply meant that Mugabe has ? and has had the constitutional means of > passing any kind of legislation to repossess his farms, so what's been > stopping him?..." > > If you bothered to read the interview with David Hasluck who, I REPEAT was > the Director of The [White] Commercial Farmers Union - or are really up to > date about the Land Issue as you claim, you would have known the following > which he repeated in the interview: > > The issue became politicised and very entrenched. When the 2000 > constitutional referendum in which the amendments to the constitution and > the provisions for the government to acquire land failed, the president > said, "well, we will continue with our existing constitution". > > But in April of that year, on the last day of parliament, they amended > Provisions Section 16 that dealt with property, and said that rural > agricultural land that was compulsorily acquired for resettlement would not > be paid for. No compensation for the land but the government would pay for > the improvements on the land. Compensation was the responsibility of the > former colonial power, they said. And it comes back to my first point: > "Because we believe that this land was taken from our forefathers without > compensation and it was often violently, and there has been no recognition > of this by the colonial power, the British must live with this > responsibility." > > Of course if you are not interested in the truth you would not be interested > in what I have to say. The reason why you are jumping all over the place is > that you don't have the facts to argue your position. > > Go back and read before making unfounded claims. First it was Mugabe had 27 > years and should have carried out Land Reform long ago, when that was > debunked you claimed he had constitutional means and did not use it, now > that too has been debunked! What this tells me is that you are just sitting > there googling and typing without any clue or perspective of what you are > talking about. > > ZANU-PF left no stone unturned in pursuit of a peaceful solution. Why do you > think all the apologists of imperialism won't touch the issue with a > ten-foot pole? Because none can honestly defend what they are claiming, thus > the lies, propaganda and onfuscation. > > Kabir. > > > > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > > Yes, your Excellency, > > I am not your enemy. > > > > I would not have flouted any agreements unless 10 years But would have > > been a much harder negotiator. It takes a lot of preparation to go to the > > negotiating table. I don't know if you are in Sweden or Denmark or where, > > but the Swedes go to negotiation backed by experts who have done their > > homework for months: They put a tough team together. Some other counties are > > less prepared at conferences etc, only getting there - sometimes- get there > > to read a speech and so on. When Lancaster House talks took place there was > > a lot of optimism in the air (not learned much from history) and a > > willingness to make those concessions - and perhaps you too would have, > > given such assurances. > > Anyway, I'm more interested in what you have to say - the rhetoric- we > > have some of that in common, but it doesn't get us very far does it? > > > > I get Google alerts for Gambia, Sierra Leone, and Zimbabwe among others: > > > > > > http://zimbabweoutpostoftyranny.typepad.com/zimbabwe_outpost_of_tyran/2007/04/towards_a_negot_1.html > > > > > > WE are all concerned about the plight of every single Zimbabwean - > > including all those who have lost their lives and those battered and bruised > > ones who still survive, hungry ?.. > > > > > > http://vikingpundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/eternal-scapegoat-as-zimbabwe-spirals.html > > > > > > "to lay blame for the whole crisis, squarely at Britain's door" is one way > > of looking at it. David Hasluck ? if he is one of the bishops, can also > > blame it all on the devil as they usually do, as if they are not sometimes > > acting on behalf of the evil one. > > > > > > http://www.acton.org/blog/index.html?/archives/1620-Evangelical-Silence-and-Zimbabwe.html > > > > You saw how the Zimbabwean government showed its military might to > > intimidate those who wanted to go on strike to demand a minimum wage? Yes he > > can do that these days, mostly to his own, but never take off his gloves > > when it comes to Downing Street. He does enjoy repartee and they both speak > > same language. > > > > I simply meant that Mugabe has ? and has had the constitutional means of > > passing any kind of legislation to repossess his farms, so what's been > > stopping him? > > If Nigeria had found herself in the same situation as Zimbabwe, I think > > that Sani Abacha would have announced one April Fools Day that all toubab > > whose lives and farms were under his protection should report to the nearest > > police station to sign over their illegal possessions or face the dire > > consequences ? and Idi Amin would give them the alternative of flying or > > swimming back home. > > > > If the very kind and nice Mugabe should have been reluctant to do it, he > > could have allowed the army to take over, suspend the constitution and move > > rapidly ? then it's all over?. Maybe the British government would then > > compensate their brothers for their losses and that compensation money > > could be used to re-possess what is re-possessable, though I suspect > > that black is black I want my country/ land back means just that. > > The above is a little extreme ? and some say that extreme measures are > > demanded > > I have a booklet in front of me: Nelson Mandela Speeches 1990 (a > > Pathfinder publication): > > http://www.amazon.com/Nelson-Mandela-Speeches-1990-Intensify/dp/0873485955 > > > > Since the end of the 10 years moratorium, Mr. Mugabe has been anxious, > > understandably, to finish the work of land reform and re-POSSESSION. > > Some of the White farmers have obtained land holdings in far away places > > like Nigeria: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1527207.stm > > > > So how does ending the sanctions restore some of the land (I know you are > > going to shout ALL of the LAND) to the people? > > South Africa has a programme where by 30% of the land will be > > re-distributed over a number of years. > > Your fear is that MDC= 10 Downing street ? but I think that all black > > Zimbabweans would like to be masters and if the government could enter into > > negotiations once again, they could arrive at a solution. As things are now, > > its seems that they would like to wait as Zimbabwe gets down to her knees, > > economically almost beyond repair and to a time that Mugabe who is holding > > the government party together disappears?? > > > > In your opinion, what must be done? Is there any danger (apart from the > > mosquitoes etc) that we could in time become like the Indians of North > > America 9n little pockets off reservation culture? > > It could still be called US of A?.. > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]> > > > Date: 2007/04/22 sö PM 01:11:57 CEST > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions > > > > > > About David Hasluck, I meant to write: > > > He, a patriotic white Zimbabwean who is NOT callous to the plight of > > the > > > poor Black > > > Zimbabwean is in no doubt where to lay blame for the whole crisis, > > squarely > > > at Britain's door. > > > > > > Kabir. > > > > > > > > > On 4/22/07, Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > OK, so now it's no longer 27 years Mugabe had? I guess you can both > > add > > > > and subtract? Does that not bring us back to the early nineties, > > barely ten > > > > years after Zimbabwe became independent in 1980? Why would you then > > claim > > > > that you would have solved the land question long before if you were > > > > president of Zimbabwe? > > > > > > > > And how would you have done that, by flauting the agreement like > > Britain > > > > did? And how would you have compensated the thieves? The same Britain > > that > > > > pledged to bankroll the compensation process was the same one that > > reneged > > > > on their pledge. What options were there left to those liberation war > > > > veterans, trust in God? > > > > > > > > Or should the people of Zimbabwe migrate as you suggested earlier? To > > > > where, the sea? > > > > > > > > Brutal invasion of "White farms"? Hmmmm, how much more brutal than the > > > > forebears of these white farmers when the stole the land? It's all in > > the > > > > records for all to consult any time. The war veterans' invasion of > > "white > > > > farms" was a picnic compared to what their own ancestors went through, > > > > unless of course Black African lives are of lesser value? > > > > > > > > David Hasluck, the former director of Zimbabwe's white Commercial > > Farmers > > > > Union granted an interview< > > http://www.swans.com/library/art9/ankomah4.html>to Baffur Ankomah the same > > day he left office in December 2002. He, a > > > > patriotic white Zimbabwean who is callous to the plight of the poor > > Black > > > > Zimbabwean is in no doubt where to lay blame for the whole crisis, > > squarely > > > > at Britain's door. > > > > > > > > Kabir. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg < > > [log in to unmask]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Correct. > > > > > > > > > > Every Amadu, Dick and Harry knows this, as do even my non-Zimbabwean > > > > > relatives at Oxford. > > > > > > > > > > Not only the ten year moratorium, but wasn't there also some talk > > about > > > > > COMPENSATION? > > > > > It's during the 10 years period of grace that preparations are made. > > > > > There are ways of measuring time, e.g. the Sabbath begins at a > > certain > > > > > time (the candles are lit 18 minutes before sunset and the Sabbath > > ends at a > > > > > certain time (when the stars come out to shine) and the people of > > Accra and > > > > > London know GMT. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Lancaster+House+agreement+%3A+Compensation&btnG=Search&meta= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ten years were up a long time ago, but perhaps the kind and > > patient > > > > > Mugabe (speaks good English and likes to discuss) hasn't taken the > > right > > > > > kind of action up till today. Why? Perhaps like Saddam he is afraid > > of > > > > > Toubaba and that's why he has not hanged a few and keeps on talking, > > saying > > > > > things like" Blair keep your England, and let me keep my Zimbabwe" > > > > > > > > > > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/robertmuga361688.html > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Blair is keeping his England sure enough and will be keeping it > > even > > > > > after the next Prime Minister (Gordon Brown?) takes over Her > > Majesty's > > > > > Government. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=MUgabe%20quotes > > > > > > > > > > And the seminar in Stockholm, with Dr. Adebayo Olukoshi and some of > > the > > > > > Zimbabwe Embassy staff in Stockholm went through the history soon > > after the > > > > > first savage attacks on the white farmers started. We dwelt on the > > Lancaster > > > > > House Agreement for some time. > > > > > > > > > > At the actual time of the Lancaster House talks, some of those of > > who > > > > > are VERY interested in this matter were on the spot 10th September > > 1979-10th > > > > > December 1979 > > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Zimbabwe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.zwnews.com/Lancasterhouse.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.zwnews.com/issuefull.cfm?ArticleID=6623 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure that no Uncle Tom bishop supports the bashing that Mugabe > > says > > > > > Morgan Tsvangirai deserved. > > > > > > > > > > About South Africa, just around that time, Shehu Shagari announced > > at > > > > > the UN, that Nigeria would use oil as a weapon to fight Apartheid. I > > arrived > > > > > in Nigeria soon thereafter and stayed for 42 months ? met a couple > > of ANC > > > > > there?.. > > > > > > > > > > United we stand, divided we fall. > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > Date: 2007/04/22 sö AM 02:59:22 CEST > > > > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > > > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions > > > > > > > > > > > > And anybody who cared to do their home work before speaking onthis > > > > > > issue would know that there was a clause in the Lancaster House > > > > > Agreements > > > > > > that did not allow the Zimbabwe government to embark on Land > > > > > Redistribution > > > > > > until at least ten years had elapsed after the signing of the > > > > > agreement. The > > > > > > government of Zimbabwe commenced its moves towards Land Reform in > > the > > > > > early > > > > > > 1990s. They honoured what they appended their signatures to! > > > > > > > > > > > > Kabir. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg < > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As one of our brothers observed, "The pursuit of > > > > > > > knowledge requires being exposed to various sources to enable > > one to > > > > > > > make an informed choice." It's a good maxim to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question now facing all is, when are sanctions legal and > > when > > > > > can they > > > > > > > be said to be illegal? As always ? and this includes the DEBATES > > > > > that took > > > > > > > place about sanctions on South Africa as to whether the > > sanctions > > > > > would not > > > > > > > have more of a crippling effect on the already impoverished > > black > > > > > population > > > > > > > than on the White power elite in South Africa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=+sanctions+on+Zimbabwe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The land in question is situated in Africa, in Zimbabwe, and > > > > > Zimbabwe is a > > > > > > > sovereign state ? has been for the past 27 years, during which > > time > > > > > the > > > > > > > problem could have been solved ? if I were president it would > > > > > certainly have > > > > > > > been solved. Absolutely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > > > > To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the > > > > > Gambia-L > > > > > > > Web interface > > > > > > > at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > > > > > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: > > > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > > > To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the > > > > > Gambia-L Web interface > > > > > > at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > > > > > > > > > > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > > > > > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l > > > > > > To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: > > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > > To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the > > > > > Gambia-L Web interface > > > > > at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > > > > > > > > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > > > > > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l > > > > > To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the > > Gambia-L Web interface > > > at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > > > > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l > > > To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: > > > [log in to unmask] > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L > > Web interface > > at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l > > To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: > > [log in to unmask] > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface > at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l > To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: > [log in to unmask] > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤