Thanks again Suntu For not been offended in the process. What I wanted you to understand is the fact that, if there is a hell fire, there will be many poor people than rich, how can you be hustling to get you one meal a day, at the same time have full concentration on God? because during this period and time you will lie you can cheat or do anything to satisfy your desire and is all against the religions of God. I will quote from from my previous post that Gun kills and all Muslim, Christian Budhas, Hindus etc knows the fact that one should not kill your fellow human-being, so why are they putting all their wealth on buying weapons while people are dying of hunger? If they are honest in what they preaches to us about God. Again if there is Hell fire why then "Sarya" why can't they wait for the God's punishment to put the offender in hell fire? or are they suppose to do the God's for Him? God is more power that us I repeat, God did not need anything from us but to use our given organs to do good on earth. So how can fight for someone who is powerful than you are? For example, If you are working regardless of the kind, you are doing it for your own pocket and health not for your boss even thus he/she is paying your salary every month. The same is God, He wants us to do things for our own progresses not for him but to recognise that we are here because of him like you are working because of the company's existence. The only answer I can think of is earthly politics and greed to gain power whiles they definitely knew power belongs to only God and is an abomination to compete with your creator. Tell me now, or name one religious country which is doing exactly according to what their various religions preaches? If they preaching God's words to us yet we are seeing a big difference in their actions with what they preaches, should we still keep on believing what they preach? You must be foolish to let others preach you to throw yourself in fire whiles you know for certain is the end of your life. Again Brother, I will repeat, I believe in the prophets and their given testimonies then again I think there is some misspoken or written on their ordeal as prophet of God. To me, I don't know about you, ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS and if your actions are contradicting your words, I will just pick the ones in your words that match my believe or life style and leave the rest. Again if you read bible Quran or any other religious book, you will see lots of similarities in their DOS and DON*TS. So therefore brother, it does not matter to me because if you were following my argument, I said religion in general even thus every religion is unique on it own right but logically they are all the same as far as God worshipping is concern. Quran also say respect your religion as well as others. This is a clear picture it I may say, to show that every religion in important but because of the power struggle that came together with human nature, everyone wants to see their prevail on top. Religion is now-a-days like politics, whoever delivered the most will gain more recognition and therefore prevail on top. SUNTOU TOURAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Edie, what you didn't make clear is where you stand with the reveal books of God. what religion you follow if any. because if you talk in general terms, we cannot find any way forward. i write from a perspective of a Muslim. if you believe in the validity and truthfulness of the Quran or the bible then, that is the starting point for your quest for clarity. what others say and do shouldn't matter to you. the quran is translated in English with commentaries. the bible likewise. the sayings of the prophet Muhammad is also translated in English. many people accept islam's teachings without discussing with any muslim. they only read the quran. some people also read the bible to be convince. don't worry about me, i am enjoying the exchange. what our people believe or say about the Arabs shouldn't be of any problem. with masoud, this is a serious conversation. if you find it funny, even more interesting. one thing i would like make clear is that, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BLAME THE SATAN FOR OUR ERRORS OR SINS. WE ARE GIVEN A WILL-POWER. AN INTERNAL WARNING SYSTEM THAT TELL US WHEN WE ARE ERRING. the Satan is around. god only warns us about his existence and his manipulations. if we decided to invite him into our life's by doings thing that pleases him ,it is our choice. we are all adults. we know when we are making mistakes. i frimly believe that many understood the context i put the examples in so i don't need to go over them. Haruna Darbo wrote: Suntou, you are a very funny man. I just want you to know that. [God is not doing any research on us.] Suntou. How do you know that??? [he already new what you haruna will do from when your were a toddler to when you die even before that.] Suntou. And yet She tests me if I will do exactly what She knew I would do. Then She destroys her own creation just to take inventory of what I had done from birth to death to evaluate her own hypotheses. I guess we are prototypes of what She really intended to create on account of out genetic uniquenesses. [Edie claims that he believe in God but he is confuse about certain things.] Suntou. Me too. Masoud. But I'm not confused about divine research. [The Satan blames man for his fall from grace and he is doing all he can for us too to incur the rapt of our creator.] Suntou. Sounds like Shaitan's personal problem doesn't it?? And who created Shaitan??? I won't be bothered by Shaitan. I got my own problems. [it's like the Mandingo saying ,bonoto kalafi anyun lella. a loser always wish for more losers.] Suntou. Misery loves company. [the Satan knows God very well. that is why when man sins he confess to not having any thing to do such a person. The Satan's problem is arrogance and pride.] Suntou. Again Suntou, it sounds like Shaitan's personal problems to me. [all man has to do is obey the commandments. the blue prints for our way to God is stated in his commandments. but since God knew what every man is going to do, we are only fulfilling a that knowledge not changing it or altering it.] Suntou. Exactly. I obey the ten commandments of Moussa. But God/Allah is still conducting research on me for her own purposes. I obey the ten commandments because my parents taught me, and because they make sense for harmonious co-existence with my fellow man. I don't do it because I am a subject of God/Allah's research. For I am not aware of divine process there-in. [we decide through our actions were our final destiny lies.] Suntou. A final destiny that was pre-destined and chosen for us. How do you know I wouldn't like to choose another destiny different from Heaven or Hell??? [if you take God's words to be just fables, well and good, if you take them seriously again well and good.] Suntou. Focus Suntou. You are digressing. We are not talking about God/Allah's words simply because people place their own interpretations on such. What we want to know is whether God/Allah is conducting research on us from your impression that She created us, created Shaitan, evicted us from Janna because we mis-behaved, led astray by Shaitan, placed us on earth to test us further, will recall us for judgement and inventory, will either place us in Hell or Heaven, continue to monitor us. What I wanna know is when will the research end???? [the message is clear. that is do good and give God his dues and you will attain eternal bliss.] Suntou. Speak for yourself. Eternal bliss = research ad-infinitum. I look forward eagerly to the yield of such perpetual research. [the basic requirement from us is to know God in the correct way, conduct the basic worship and live with him in mind.] Suntou. Yes. And She will determine if we have done exactly what She had ordained. [if that is too difficult to comprehend then, we may analyse our respective field of expertise and see who is wrong.] Suntou. That wouldn't be necessary. It is not about who is wrong or right when it comes to divinity. It is about whether you have God/Allah in you. [i will take Baba galeh here for instance, he is a great bloke, and intelligent fellow and highly qualified human being. yet he didn't say, i am bless with intelligence let me relax in Farafeni and my intelligence will guide me. he worked hard in school. he knew the field he is most capable of and he directed his energy on that path. he is already with a masters degree and has worked for high profile organisations. isn't that enough endeavour? to him no, he is now pursuing a doctorate degree. why is Baba doing all that? is it easy attaining a masters degree? no. how many hours do one has to put in to get such a high level education.? now coming to our other brother Lamin J Darboe. he is a very intelligent brother whose intelligence was well known before he left the Gambia. he attain the highest level of law studies in the u.s. he is a barrister. but did Mr Darboe just accept his intelligence and sit at home? he worked hard for all he achieve. likewise many brothers and sisters study the things that interest them. God did not tell us to do those studies. we knew it will help us in our future careers. we want the best in life.] Suntou. Suntou, have you bothered to ask Galleh and JDAM why they are doing what they do???? And what does that have to do with God/Allah conducting research on them unawares???? [In our every day life, God is present with us in his knowledge. he is not dictating to us what to do. he send us our constitution and guide, his words through a man from among us. this man deliver the message of God. just like any speaker, we are entitle to say, what a load of rubbish or what a waste of time you are. if one wants to understand the message of God, you take time and analyse his messages in the books containing them, if you still think the messages are vake, then consult the experts in that field, just like we consult legal advisers, accountants, coaches, teachers, doctors, etc. we cannot have an excuse in the hereafter.] Suntou. You are all over the place. Suntou, are you now wanting to rephrase your supposition that God/Allah evicted from heaven because Shaitan enticed us into evil so we can continue to be tested here on earth for the later reckoning for inventory sakes to continue being subjects of research in heaven or hell as will be determined by God/Allah???? [God told people in the Quran, " won't you ponder over the message i reveal to you?"] Suntou. I did. And I continue to do that. [He also told us to look into our own creation, there is a lesson for those who think. the anatomy of man is full of what amaze us every single day. the Satan is only there to distract us. we as men let him have control over us, we let him rule us. the Satan has his own kingdom. he rule over the jinns and men who obey him. he gave his followers things that they should have to wait for.] Suntou. And God/Allah created us, Saitan, and all the jinns. [the confusion over the messengers is all man's determination to live the way he deem fit. a close example is when we have elected members representing us in government. we expect this people to do what we voted them to do.] Suntou. Forget the messengers and the representatives of govt. we voted for or will vote for. What does that have to do with God/Allah??? It seems to me these folk have their own deamons and personal problems they must account for. That is why we prosecute them here on earth before they answer to their creator for the other side of double jeopardy. [but this men later becomes more powerful than us. they rather tell us what we should do not the other way round. they make laws that restrict our rights, they lock us up and enjoy our tax revenue. yet we feel this people should be listening to us. we normally tell them, next election , we will not vote for you.] Suntou. And whose faults are you sharing?? I hope you don't think those are God/Allah's faults. [As for God ,the day he will ask us to give account, there will be no next time.] Suntou. Advice: Don't wait for the day of divine judgement. Judge on earth and forgive or punish. Then let God/Allah do what She wills. [this is why it is important that we don't make life more complicated than it is. we all Believe in God. But we need to believe the correct way. we need to prove that we believe by doing the bare minimum required of us. if you are Muslims, pray the five daily prayers, fast during Ramadan, go for hajj in you are capable, give zakat when you have the wealth. and firmly believe in The uniqueness and oneness of god without any partner or lookalike, without any concept that we are all gods or any thing like that.] Suntou. The five pillars of Islam. Eemaan. I told you you are funny Suntou. The moment I look away, you are right back where you began. I gotta watch yew. [i will now continue on the holy men's issue. the marabouts, the seriegns, the chernos.] Suntou. I am not interested. They have their personal problems and deamons to deal with. Masoud. MQJGDT. Darbo. Al Mu'umin. Haruna Darbo wrote: In other words God/Allah is conducting research on his creation. Ergo, we are only significant to her and NOT ourselves. What success are we working toward ag now coming to one of our brother, Lamin J Darboe, he is also a high intelligent pain????? I think brother Sidibeh is unto something Suntou. The Shaitan/devil is the conflicts within Ourselves and not a countervailing force of divine research. Haruna. I just remembered the landscape project is not quite complete. My son has brought two key points to my attention. One is divine, and the other is process. I shall share them with you my friends under appropriate topic. In a message dated 5/6/2008 5:47:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Brother Edie, if you are following me, i am taking a sequence. i am coming to the questions you asked. what is imperative is that we understand our relationship with god and then with the Satan. You don't need to worry about the temptations of the Satan if you fully understand what God expects of you. The reality of the state of the human being is such that, we are given a freedom to choose between good and evil. that is part of our privilege creation. since you are using practical examples to explain our responsibilities as humans, i will do likewise to decode other issues. Mr sidibe, we all know that nothings comes that free, we work hard for our success. suppose you work in a factory that manufacture mobile phones. your boss told you that i trust you that you will not steal any phone. and he fix some cameras to monitor you whilst you work. this cameras cover every angle of the work place. but you know unless some thing major happens your boss will not check the camera records. you start to steal some phones once in a while. your boss never caught you but your actions are on tape. you work for that company until you are retired. your boss then plan a send off for you. he never knew what bad things you have done.he trusted you to do what is right with all the temptation to steal few phones. similarly, God's decision to let the devil tempt us is a test brother Edie. that test is the measure of our determination to obey him or obey our nemesis the devil. we cannot just be created to obey god, without any test, that will not make us any different from other animals. the test is the key for our success or failure in the hereafter. just like we are given exams in schools or universities. the point you stated concerning " no one will go to hell" is a concept that the nation of Islam preaches. but the reality is that ,hell is a place for punishment and cleansing. we should all pray that God forbid us from entering into it. men like pol pot,Mobutu, HITLER COMMITTED ACTS WHICH ARE horrible yet no one has punished them for their actions, do you believe that those men will not get judged by their creator? as Muslims we believe that hell is a test for all believers. those who obey the commandments of GOD will be blessed with paradise and others with hell. but the decision to either punish or bless lies only in god's hand. the creation of the devil or Satan is part of test. he is needed to test the obedience and promise of man. all that the devil tempt men can be substitute with what is allowed by god. for instance, instead of adultery one can marry. instead of consuming alcohol one can drink juice or water. etc. i will continue later. the real issue here is why and how men give their life to the Satan, be it in the name of arts and creativity, or entertainment,wars,wealth,fame and over zealousity. we shall take a sequence.thanks since you are using practi Edie Sidibeh wrote: Thank you again Mr.Touray for your clarification on the issue of faith. However sir, you did not answer my question but pondering on the same old story I have heard over and over again. What I am asking is the reason why God take us out of the Garden to earth? also as why should God let satan to exist if He/She did not Obey His will? God says that, everything on earth is an example of that we will have in heaven. Taking that to consideration, When swomeone works for a company for certain period and at the end does not want to Obey the company's regulations disagreeing with the owners and the owners have no other choice than sending Him/her packing, should the company be mandated to paying him continuously for life or should it be for certain period? Again God says before you worship me, you should "try" to know me first. Again, knowing someone or somebody those not come in a silver plate but asking a clarity about him and why he does certain thing that does not motivate you to follow what he/she is preaching concerning your interest. Some people will be critical if one will asked certain question regarding God, some will tell that God doesn't want you to asked many questions but to believe Him. Of course I believe in God as well as the prophets but the stories that preachers said are those that are confusing, as such, if God took us out of the Garden because we are sinful, why will He take us back while we are not clean? Again, my stupid logic told me that, GOD GAVE US THE SENSES WE ARE USING TO THINK FEEL TOUCH SEE AND HEAR. These are things that we can use to know what is right and wrong, therefore, why do we need Satan to influence us WHILE THE BRAIN IS THERE TO ASSIST OUR SENSES? If something is term wrong it therefore satanic but anything good is Godly, in this way who will take responsibility if something goes wrong hence Satan is more powerful than we are. Therefore, everybody should go to heaven because we are powerless to resist things we cannot see feel or touch and hear. That is why God said between me and you no one will go to hell, because He knows that we are our own Satan for that matter He said only between you and your fellow human-being will take you to hell. Again thanks for your time. /Brother Edie, you are a very humble person. We are all students in this global village. Be proud with what you know and express it so that others can learn from you. The topic has been expanded. We shall include every thing relevant here. Our learned brothers are a bit miserly, they don't easily part with knowledge. Haruna is one educated brother. Coming to the real issue of our relationship as human beings with the Devil or Satan. i will put it in a story form but it is how the scholars of Islam explained it. Long before man was created ,a being was among the angels. Angels don't disobey the commands of God. They are created that way. The duties assigned to is done to perfection and they engage in the glorification of God all their life's. Among the Angels was the Devil or Satan or Jinn. He was created from Fire. He served among the Angels ,at one point rose to be among the leadership. What causes a high ranking being among the Angels to be banished to oblivion? God in his infinite plans, started creating our ancestor Adam. As Muslims we believe that God created Adam with his own hands. when Adam was laying in a form of clay or mud. the Angels will be wondering what being God is creating. The Satan started to be jealous of Adam has he lay in a lifeless form. It is reported that, The Satan usually point its finger at Adam's Tummy saying " i don't know what is this but if any thing his tummy will be a big temptation for him". to this many scholars said, the Satan's words proof true against us as humans, our quest for livelihood make us do many horrendous things. all we pursue in life is related to our happiness and comfort. from thief's to murderer. When Adam was completed to the human form, God then created a soul. The soul is not from God. The soul is created. Then Adam's soul is breath into him. Then God authorised the Angels and Satan to prostrate to Adam. God created us with honour and respect. To this request the Angels fall down and prostrated. But the Satan refused. He disobeyed the command of God. This is a serious issue but the Satan was ready to face any consequences. He was asked, why did you refuse to obey the command of God? his answer, which is similar to what many human beings say to day is " i am better than him, you created me from fire and him from clay". God told the Satan ," i know things you don't know". but the Satan was adamant. It refuse to bodge. He sealed his faith. What is the difference between committing a sin and falling in a state of disbelief? to commit a sin one knowingly do an act that he is forbidden from doing. to commit disbelief or kuffur, one denies the the validity of there being any wrong in his or her action. he/she don't belief the commands are reasonable and valid. this is disbelief. an example, God command Muslims not to commit fornication and adultery. we as humans have many temptations. one way or the other, you find yourself committing fornication. you accepts that it is wrong but you followed your desire and commit a major sin in Islam which has a stipulated punishment in here and the hereafter. but still you do it. That is a sin. but if you don't belief that fornication is a sin and that why should it be a sin? it is a relationship between two consenting adult, it is unreasonable for God to regard it a sin, then you have disbelief and disregard God's commandments and his validity and existence. What the devil did was the later. He told God, i am better than Adam ,meaning human. i am made of fire, still coming to the discrimination issue. the statement of the devil is thus, you God made a mistake. you were irrational and unjust to tell me to bow down to an inferior creation of yours. whom he thought don't deserve any honour from him. God then asked him the Satan, what do you want? i reward you now all the past deeds you have done or later? he opted for a condition that He the Satan live till dooms day. that wish of him was granted. Before parting he made a promise to God. That is " i will make all the offspring of Adam, the man who === message truncated === --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. 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