OK Suntou, i have did what you've asked Batch. I have transcribed the relevant portion dealing the AFPRC government as said by Seedia.
This is what Seedia said: "...of course they may have limitations as to how to manage a society, but they would not deliberately destroy the society because they are part and parcel of the society. So from that point of view, i think one can deal with them, one can communicate with them until such time that they see reason for transferring this setup to a more accepted setup which is a democratically elected government."
Halifa dilated on two things first on the issue of people within the country expressing their dissatisfaction and secondly on the need for an Independent electoral Commission.
So, you can come up with your analysis to justify your claims earlier.
I agreed with what you said to Batch that this thread should not be reduced to accusations and counter accusations. But no, you have picked you old self once more. When i was citing Baba Galleh's commentary of 16 years ago, it wasn't meant bring his comments in to discussion at all. but unfortunately Batch has chosen to do so and succeeded in getting you into action at what you do best.
For Sainey though, i encourage him to spewing much more because sooner than later he will prove himself to be the master liar. Sainey, No one will do the searching for you. It is you who allege so it is unto you that the burden of prove lies. You repeatedly said you hate Jammeh soon you will open up on how much you hate PDOIS and those associated with it.
Am still waiting for you answer.
Nyang
9/16/10, suntou touray <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: suntou touray <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [>-<] A cautionary note - ATTN: Banka Manneh
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 1:54 PM
Batch
Indeed I made no sense to someone who avoid the issues at hand. In a million years I never wish to make sense to you.
Please I implore you to quote us the two gentlemen (Sedia and Halifa) in the video. Then we can analyse what they said.
They endorsed the coup just like many here. Not taking position was strategic and self-preservation. If you wish to talk about irrelevant issues here, then bang on fella.
Why are you so desperate for the UDP to disassociate with me? The UDP's relationship with me is not your concern. mine your little business.
Analyse us the content of the video. Sedia said, Jammeh and his boys will not destroy the country. But hasn't he been tussling with them for ages? How many unsolved crimes do we have with the Junta turn civilians in charge?
I await your analysis of the short ten minutes video. Cheers mate, although, you might a be ghost. Is it that difficult to come out plain like few folks here?
The poignancy of the interviews are many fold, concern parties must now adjust their strategies for tangible result.
Thank you Mr Samba (I assume), one thing though, you seems to have memorised all my comments on PDOIS, fascinating.
Suntou
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Batch Samba <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Suntou Touray,
Again you have displayed a state of mind that speaks of of both confusion and ignorance.
There exist scientific methods of collecting data/facts, processing them into systematic information that qualifies as knowledge. I happen to have seen the whole of the video that is your supposed evidence of PDOIS' connivance with the AFPRC. You make no sense as usual.
Who else did you see in the video and what did they say about the then situation in the country? What, for example was Ousainou Darbo's position.?, OJ's, Dibba's? How do they compare to what Halifa or Sidia might have said even as you struggle to take it out of context?
So you need my picture and "ID"? You really have a big problem Suntou and should learn to deal with that. Do you ever even read through the nonsense you spew before sending it online? You deliberately lied about decent people on numerous occasions and when irrefutable documentation to the contrary is put before you, you play the monkey.
Go back and read what Nyang forwarded the other day. PDOIS refused to support people who seized power behind the back of the people and defied the band on their publication, ready to go to jail. In the same token you falsely accuse them anyone can say the same about Ousainou. That he was playing it safe so that should Sidia, Halifa and Sam be eliminated he'll have the whole field to himself. Isn't it at such times that the people needed a "Human Rights" lawyer than than any? Where was he? Tell us.
There are scores of accusations that can be levelled against the man you warship so hard you went out of your way to insult someone's parents in a public forum simply because they called a public figure a coward. And you accuse people who are critical of PDOIS when they don't agree with them of warshipping them? Again do you read over what you write before you send? I know in your small mind you are this giant of an intellectual. You don't know shit! Even forgetting Halifa, how many people have you launched unjustified attacks on online at various times?
The UDP need to issue you with a warning or simply expel you because you do more damage than good to the party. You are a dangerous, hateful character, Suntou Touray.
Batch.
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 1:17 PM, suntou touray <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Batch
The issue at hand is about the interview not a perceive slander deem unfavourable to your chosen man. The issue at hand is about how the leaders can be brought together. I gave my word to Gambians practically trying to achieve that task.
I know it is a deceptive strategy for some of you to create a quarrel over issues which are plain as a clear African day. Hence, deal with the interview at hand and leave Suntou alone. I left the topic for diverse members here to share their thoughts, but it seems even if Suntou is quiet, some will start a fight over nothing, very sad indeed. The subject under scrutiny is not ancient history, it happen just few days ago. I know there is an over supply of information bordering on saying things one intends and avoiding the questions, but still there are a lot readers can make from the excellent Maafanta dialogue.
A video link above will indicate to wise members here that, the coup of 1994 has wider support among even veteran Gambian politicians. Sedia and Halifa can be seen and heard saying "this people (Junta) will not destroy their own country, because they are part and parcel of this society". That indicated that a clear support, and for them, looking to the future was all that matters not the legality of the coup.
Now is that not an endorsement?
Sedia and Halifa may not join the Junta's ranks but they welcome the coup just like Baba Galleh and many other well meaning Gambians. From a practical point of view and notwithstanding what Nyang said, there is no distinction between what Baba Galleh said Sedia and Halifa should do and what Halifa and Sedia said in this video. The distinction is very minimal bordering on the semantics of not taking Ministerial appoint but overall welcoming a change of guards. In the circumstances was it not plausible to suggest that, Sedia and Halifa were probably positioning themselves for the next civilian administration should the soldiers abide by their promises of returning back to the Baracks? The banned former major parties cleared the way for the only existing party (PDOIS) to hold the flag.
Hence, calling my position lying is childish and juvenile on your part. I know in a twisted way, you believe you will be able to demean me and hence then a bitter exchange will ensue drowning vital discussions. But as I said, find somebody else to quarrel with, I may do that with people I know are real and exist. Show yourself with photo ID and should I find a discussion relevant and you wish to quarrel, then we will. But taking you for Batch Samba is not enough.
However, that is beside the point in the above A.Koroma topic. Stop playing games and stick to the topic. Sadly, bringing irrelevant banter drives away the good folks. Why try elbowing a genuine Gambia brother (Galleh) for creating a false myriad? As if politicians are such Saints they don't act for their own good.
I am focusing on own weekend Rally at Serrekunda, stop beating the wind.
Suntou
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Batch Samba <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Suntou,
Why are you all over the place when my point was about your consistent lies about Halifa and PDOIS enabling the AFPRC? How many times have you repeated that lie here and elsewhere?
What has Malcolm X and Gandhi or even Darbo got to do with that? YOU Suntou Touray lied, not once, not twice, not even three times but on numerous occasions about how Halifa and co. enabled the AFPRC even though there has always been irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
Before you ask others to leran from their mistakes why don't you start with yourself and admit you deliberately spread lies about people who not only refused a to join crminal gang but articulated very well at the material time the reason for their refusal?
You are simply unbelievable. What next, are you going to quote me the price of 'warrga' in Basse? Address the issue, which is about you malicious lies against decent people.
Batch.
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:44 AM, suntou touray <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Batch
The issue at hand is suppose to be a sober topic and a day of reflection, but it is hijack by desperate people like you for point scoring. I see all opposition politicians as human beings who are fallible. And to remotely attribute holiness to them is sycophancy and foolishness of the highest order.
There are many things Halifa did wrong and Darboe, Hamat, Sedia etc did wrong. And its for them to be big and learn from their mistakes. I know some see the errors of their chosen Messiahs as blasphemy but we don't.
Mandela admitted to getting some major political decisions wrong, Gandhi the same, Malcon X, Martin Luther, Barak Obama and countless great world leaders known not just in the little enclosure call the Gambia, but all around the world. Hence, i analyse the contributions of leaders base on their performance and decisions within a given time period.
There were many other Gambians that refuse to join the military junta, including Ousainou Darboe. For us this are not unique chest thumping political land marks but part of a grand journey.
The Maafanta interview exposes many diametric realities and the more sober and focus this issues are looked at the better. This is why, I will not lament on the issues for character assassination and biting about the bush. The readership now can see for themselves what has transpired in the interim on the talks to bring the parties together. Whatever formula anyone has in mind is only a dream without joining forces with those that has the base to make some parts of it a reality. However, politics being what it is, a clear Red warning can be converted to Blue whilst folks watch.
The political realities have hardly change. I for one call for calm and deep thinking. Attacking Suntou will not change anything. I am not a bird that can be eaten by whilst awake. You can try diverting the subject matter all you like, I will not assist you on such baseless quest. To quote Yahya Jammeh "I know what people have in mind without saying it". The Gambia seems to have many gods.
Suntou
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Batch Samba <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I hope Suntou Touray is reading this. He has consistently lied about how Halifa and PDOIS were the AFPRC's enablers. But again, facts don't matter to him. Anyhow, here is one solid and irrefutable example that demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that neither Halifa Sallah nor PDOIS enabled the parasites, on the contrary he/they spotted them from miles away, so to speak.
Cheers!
Batch.
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Baba Galleh Jallow <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear Modou, Just wanted to bring to your attention that the article you quoted was not carried on my Story of the Week column. That column was for short satirical stories. The article in question was published as a feature article in the Observer. As the title suggests, for me The Gambia was like an egg on the rocks. That was how fragile and vulnerable our country was in my mind. And yes, at the time, I disagreed with Halifa's decision to turn down the ministerial offer. I was all for giving the self-proclaimed "soldiers with a difference" the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong, which they did soon enough. Of course, I was young and naive and overly worried that without sound advice from the likes of Halifa, the AFPRC would mess up real bad, and they did. By dint of his knowledge and experience, Halifa, of course, saw that collaborating with the soldiers would be futile for they would neither accept well meaning advice, nor in any case do the right thing. He perhaps knew that they were going to do to him what they have since done to many ministers of their regime: Use him, discredit him, and dump him. I must say I thank God that Halifa refused to accept that post. Just thought to correct the column error and help put that issue in better perspective for the history books. Thanks Nyang. Baba
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:02:14 +0000
Subject: Re: [>-<] A cautionary note - ATTN: Banka Manneh To: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank> [log in to unmask]
Thank you Koto Ansu, I appreciate your effort in sharing your views on the process of alliance or coalition building for the opposition in the Gambia.
Dealing with the specifics will help us a great deal as we explore the right formula to adopt. I am delighted that we now seemed to reach an understanding on the mode of primary if that option is to be pursued. But allow me to state that any other person who doubts that a holding a primary is not feasible can state his or her reasons to convince me. Mere dismissals won’t work. Politics is not only about common sense, but rather it is an art and science to be performed and applied according to time and circumstances.
Hence both Abdou Karim and Sainey have not shown any thing why the holding of a primary is unworkable. Sainey even spoke his mind when he repeated his call for Halifa to “rally behind the main opposition party”. I have little to say to these folks and their likes who want PDOIS/Halifa Sallah to follow willy-nilly the UDP and Ousainou. It is these same condemnations that PDOIS/Halifa received from many a Gambian people for rejecting to join the “Soldiers with a difference” that I believe many in this forum had believed in.
I will share one such example here from Baba Galleh Jallow when writing in his column “Story of the Week” in the Daily observer criticized Halifa for not accepting the AFPRC’s offer to him for a ministerial post. In August 1994, Baba wrote: “…Again it was a matter of principle that prevented Halifa Sallah from accepting the post of minister of Health and Social Welfare from the AFPRC. Many Gambians are not happy with Mr. Sallah’s rejection of that post. They feel he could have contributed greatly to the welfare of Gambians by accepting it. He could complement his ideas on social welfare and offer invaluable advice to the AFPRC.” You can follow the full link below as it was carried under Foroyaa’s Focus on Politics column. http://www.foroyaa.gm/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2264
I bring this point into this debate not to put Baba Galleh’s thoughts of sixteen years into discussing; rather it is to use it as an example to show how illogical those calls for an unconditional rallying behind some one are. Why do someone has to rally behind another person? We have to move together to meet our challenges.
Koto Ansu, I cited the NADD MOU in relations to the holding of a primary to buttress my point that holding of primaries is feasible and practical. If karim and Sainey sees it an bringing in NADD into the topic, I see their action as that of just dismissing the issue of a primary instead of discussing the Nitty-gritty’s involved. This style of dealing with our problems will never get us the desired results.
I appreciate your attempt of going into details on how you feel how representation should be apportioned. This is what negotiations are about. Parties going to the negotiating table with their views and demands and try to convince others.
On the subject of cost and logistics, Koto Ansu, that depends entirely on what format the parties choose to follow. The cost can be as little as a few thousands of dalasi. Probably far cheaper than the STGDP proposed replica of Jammeh’s dialogue of with the people’s tour.
Finally, thank you for reaching out to Mai. All efforts are needed to try to get us the desired unity we are yearning for.
Modou Nyang
--- On Mon, 9/13/10, ansukoroma <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: ansukoroma <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [>-<] A cautionary note - ATTN: Banka Manneh
To: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 8:30 AM
Mr. Nyang,
All I'm trying to do is to highlight areas I think are worth taking note of and that requires immediate attention from all parties concerned based on the interviews of the party leaders of UDP and PDOIS. I raised the issue of feasibility because of what a primary (in the American sense) entails. I do not know what they call primaries in Europe or other parts of the world but in the US there are several variations or types (direct, indirect, opened, closed etc.) and you have eluded to at least the indirect version which entails each party electing delegates to attend the convention to select a leader. First, you are using the NADD MOU template which is being objected to by Abdoukarim and Sainey Sisay. If all parties are to select equal number of delegates to the convention, then the opposition party with the largest votes in the previous presidential election - UDP - can and will legitimately argue that they should have more delegates than any other party at the convention, followed by the second biggest vote getter and on down the line.
Secondly, if the issue of proportionality is accepted and applied, then it stand to reason that all of the UDP will vote for the UDP-proposed candidate. Even with all the others voting for say PDOIS-proposed candidate, UDP will carry the day. I am of the view that any version of the primary you settled for will involve some element of logistics and costs and therefore relevant to the issue of feasibility. If what you are suggesting, a convention with delegates from each political party, I think this will minimize the likely involvement of Yaya Jammeh and his government since it will not be a nation-wide primary election.
On your final point in response to my question about an alternative to a primary, the obvious option is for all opposition parties throw their support behind the UDP-proposed candidate to lead the coalition. Alternatively, a closed indirect primary as you suggested but with proportional representation with the biggest opposition party getting a largest number of delegates to be seated at the Convention, followed by the second largest vote getter etc. After the first round of voting, the candidate with most votes is the winner. As a matter of formality and a show of solidarity and unity the winner is selected by acclamation.
Thanks for your observations and I am sure the authorites will take these and other concerns in their deliberations. I have reached out to Mai Fatty, leader of GMC and he is very supportive of the efforts of STGDP, the online community and members of the Diaspora who are not active in these forums but are very active otherwise in Gambian politics. Mr. Fatty will be reaching out to them as well for their support in promoting a unified opposition.
A. Koroma
-----Original Message----- From: Modou Nyang < [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank> [log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank> [log in to unmask]Sent: Mon, Sep 13, 2010 4:47 am Subject: RE: [>-<] A cautionary note - ATTN: Banka Manneh
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Ansu, thanks for sharing these important interview. Despite that your questions are directed to the STGDP, I however feel it a responsibility as a fellow citizen and stakeholder in the topic under discussion to get involved especially after having listened to STGDP’s Banka Manneh dilate on your ver y questions as asked him by Pa Nderry on Freedom Radio.
Ansu, you asked: “How practical and feasible is it to conduct a nation-wide primary election that will produce credible and binding results?”
My view on the above question is that feasibility of a primary for the determination of an opposition candidate depends on the willingness of the opposition parties to pursue it. Suffice it to say that the purpose of the primary is to choose a single candidate among willing partners especially opposition parties to be supported against the APRC. This means that those who shall be delegates to such an election will have to come from the parties participating in the process. Hence the issue of feasibility is a weak and misplaced question. As a citation, allow me to use the option elaborated upon in the NADD MOU as an example just to show how people can devise means and ways to solve problems.
The NADD MOU stated in part III under Elections and Tenure of Office as thus:” …provided that in the event of an impasse selection shall be done by holding a primary election restricted to party delegates on the basis of equal number of delegates, comprising the chairman, chairwoman and youth leader of each party from each village/ward in a constituency.” This was the option on the NADD MOU and another option could still be devised. We should just have to look at the political structures on the ground and not mistaken it with the primaries here in the United States.
It is my view that once the parties choose to commit themselves to the option of a primary product will be credible and binding just as a unaminous decission on selecting a NADD candidate among all the parties would have been credible and binding.
Another example that can be cited here too is the case of party congress and citing the recent UDP congress will be a good example. The UDP know it’s members and has it’s structures that it utilises to send delegates to congress where they make important decission such as choosing the party leader and candidate for upcoming elections. Could that be infiltrated too?
You again asked: “Will the regime of Yaya Jammeh facilitate such an election by providing the necessary logistical and administrative support as and when required?”
The issue of holding a primary for an opposition candidate to contest against Yaya Jammeh and his APRC party has nothing to do with Yaya Jammeh as a facilitator. He is not welcome there and is not invited. But I guess you are not insinuating that the opposition parties will require or need Jammeh’s facillitation or approval to hold a primary? I hope not.
Your next question is: “How will the primaries be financed and by whom?”
I will say it will be financed by those who are intersted in bringing about change in the country. Both PDOIS and UDP have held congresses which required financing and they did it.
You asked again: “Can this national-wide primary elections be conducted successfully without the cooperation of the regime of Yaya Jammeh?”
Yes, I say Koto Ansu. What cooperation do we need from Yaya Jammeh’s regime to organise ourselves to make him and his regime history? If there is any, we need him and his regime to consentrate on doing their best while we inturn will show even his and their best is still not good enough for the Gambian people. Parties are organising according to their means and abilities on the ground needing no cooperation of any body.
Your next question also asked: “Why would Yaya Jammeh's government wish this process a success if it is to contribute towards his being voted out of office?”
He does not need or have to wish us success. His supporters can even go on exposing their bodies as some old women did at Bundung during the 2007 NA elections. The will for success or not is entirely dependent on us and being this kind of defeatism and submissiveness does the job for Jammeh.
Koto Ansu and your last question: “Isn't there another way of achieving the same end without resorting to a nation-wide election?”
Draws a big yes from me. Yes there other ways. To me a primary is just an option. As a people interested in changing the status quo that has so long bediviled our country, we can always come up with ways and means to find a solution.
I hope you see my intervention as a person interested in bringing about political change to our country. Thank you in advance.
Modou Nyang
--- On Mon, 9/13/10, abdoukarim sanneh <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: abdoukarim sanneh <[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: [>-<] A cautionary note - ATTN: Banka Manneh
To: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank>[log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 3:39 AM
Ansu and SMB Sisay as stated earlier these is the most legitimate concern. We all know and should be bold enough to tell Halifa to water down his demand. It is a fact that the concern of minority should be look into but it is time to tell the truth. It a wise word Mr Ceesay...Halifa should swallow his pride and rally behind the main opposition party.
From: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank> [log in to unmask]To: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank> [log in to unmask]Subject: Re: [>-<] A cautionary note - ATTN: Banka Manneh Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:08:14 -0700
In my opinion, I think your concerns are legitimate. Another question I will like to add is: how will the oppostion be able to conduct primaries without having the ruling supporters voting? Some ruling party supporters will certainly vote just to sabotage the whole idea.
We all know that their is no need for primaries. Halifa should swallow his pride and rally behind the main opposition party.
Sainey
Sent from my iPhone
Dear All,
I realize its too early to comment on the insightful responses of Ousainou Darboe and Halifa Sallah to their respective interviews by Fatou Jaw Manneh of www.Maafanta.com since it been published today. I will therefore refrain from commenting on or drawing conclusions from them. I hope, in time, STGDP and those responsible for bringing the opposition together for negotiations will be able to do so in a constructive manner to assist in the dialogue. Time is clearly not on the side of the opposition with still huge huddles to be scaled and yet I see potential intransigence lurking in every corner of the two interviews.
However, and in spite of it all, I must say a word or two about an aspect in Halifa's interview that I wish to draw a cautionary note regarding the grass root decision of PDOIS to make it mandatory for the leadership to support only the candidate selected by a united opposition through a primary. If it is mandatory, it cannot be changed without PDOIS going back to it's grass roots to seek a new authority to proceed differently. If this is not forthcoming for whatever reason(s), PDOIS cannot act unilaterally. So the questions that come to mind are the following: How practical and feasible is it to conduct a nation-wide primary election that will produce credible and binding results? Will the regime of Yaya Jammeh facilitate such an election by providing the necessary logistical and administrative support as and when required? How will the primaries be financed and by whom? Can this national-wide primary elections be conducted successfully without the cooperation of the regime of Yaya Jammeh? Why would Yaya Jammeh's government wish this process a success if it is to contribute towards his being voted out of office? Isn't there another way of achieving the same end without resorting to a nation-wide election?
The above questions are meant to be reflected upon by those at STGDP and parties who've been mandated by their respective parties and/or organizations as part of the process. In case you are wondering why I selected this issue above all others, its because from the interviews, this is the only issue that appears to require the mobilization of significant financial, humans and adminsitrative resources, including the state apparatus which requires the consent and cooperation of Yaya Jammeh. Therefore, it is my judgement that this issue needs to be resolved immediately and the necessary government approval sought and financial and other logistical support agred to by government. It is hard for me to discern a nation-wide primary elections being conducted independent of the government. I could also be wrong, entirely.
A. Koroma
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Cheers!
Batch Samba.
--
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com
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Cheers!
Batch Samba.
-- Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22 "And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran www.suntoumana.blogspot.com --
Cheers!
Batch Samba.
-- Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22 "And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran www.suntoumana.blogspot.com
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