An interesting conversation.
Bailo
--- On Sun, 26/9/10, Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: America is at a Crossroads. So is the world. Figure out which way you want to go and join
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, 26 September, 2010, 23:28
Haruna,(Obama chose alternative #4. Where's the problem???? You must understand that all of the stimulus package, whatever the amount, had to be borrowed. So even if you can borrow 1.4 trillion it doesn't mean you should borrow that. The great policy-maker has to engage in sober iterative econolitics in order to settle on a particular loan amount. Do you know what the state of the US deficit was when Obama was engaged in Stimulus linear programming?) ..Ron
You keep harping about borrowing as if that is so foreign when it comes to budgets. Isn't that what governments do on a daily basis? Treasury bonds and other securities are sold, citizens are taxed to pay the investors. If you are so gung-ho about deficits, you should be advocating for the end to expensive and un-winnable wars that are been waged in Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak. I have no clue what the US deficit was when Obama is engaged in stimulus
linear programming as you intimated, but i trust you will enlighten me. This is akin to been told to shut up because the great leader knows best.
(I knew this is what you believe. First of all, political capital is not an asset to be spent anyhow you desire Caesar. Political capital is as valuable as its manner of expenditure. It is what I call deferred assets) ..RON
Preach on brother...I didn't know that you hoard political capital until its value depreciates to an abysmal level, but you have an insight into what I believe.
(Obama was privy to more global information than you or Conrad, or Obey fathomed. Besides none of the three of you had to do the requesting.)...RON
You are right in your estimation of me. But I think it is purely spite on your part to add Conrad and Obey to the mix; for they had a great deal to do with budgeting in the congress.
(Caesar, you will have to agree
with me that this is convoluted conjecture as you have admitted. If it was conjecture, how could it have compounded anything? Besides, the stimulus was NOT MEANT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE RISE OR FALL OF UNEMPLOYMENT. The Stimulus package is a positive measure to create employment, spur innovative enterprise in the transition to a clean energy economy, infuse capital into the private sector because the colluding banks (The scheme to atrophy the economy and inure an Obama failure) were witholding such critical funds from the private sector even after they were bailed out for spectacular theft.)..RON
I am kind of confuse with your summation above. If the stimulus is not meant to do anything about the rise and fall of unemployment, why did the administration tout that so much. And why did you did say "it is a positive measure to create employment"? What am I missing? Isn't creating employment tantamount to decreasing
unemployment? No?
(One-trick or two-tricks, the stimulus was not a trick. I want you professional lefties to quit looking at policy and government expenditure as a friggin Christmas pot to dip in whenever Santa Claus comes aknocking. You do not demonstrate the requisite discipline expected of a leader of a democratic nation.)...Ron
There you again playing semantics with my usage of one trick pony. You know the context I used it in, but to make a point, you had to make it look like I am calling the stimulus a trick. where did I intimate such absurdity to the policy? With regards to the discipline expected of a leader of a democratic nation, well I will let you handle that. However, I do not profess to meeting the requisite for any job and you don't have to tell me what a bum lefties like yours truly are. We live that life daily.
(We had seen 8 years of Laissez-faire
prior. And who do you think were responsible for the Laissez-faire and your or Obama's emergent intervention in the first place??????? It is those same idiots who Want to do "LESS" for the economy today. You must therefore redouble your efforts to dispossess them of any fiduciary responsibility for America's ware.)...RON
You don't have to lecture me on what transpired under the Bush administration. I am old enough to witness that. Having said that, I believe it goes to the core of the argument been made by left of center progressives. If the previous 8 years were so disastrous and that disaster was started by the party in the minority today, why is the president elected to clean their act, acting as if they have any wonderful ideas?
(But Caesar YOU know the stimulus created and continues to create employment. If someone then tells you the stimulus did not create employment in order to
discredit the idea of the stimulus, what will you tell them?????? Are you just gonna sit there and let them disrespect you by lying to you???? I don't know about you Caesar but NO-ONE, and I mean NO ONE, lies to Haruna and gets away with it)...RON
But i remember you telling me it (the stimulus) has nothing to do with employment/unemployment. That was your position. My position was, if the stimulus was larger than what was passed, it would have a more stimulative effect, creating more employment with it. Will you make up your mind? To answer your question, yes I believe the stimulus created jobs. And I will argue further that it would have a bigger bang if it was spread so thin. Why do you think the administration is proposing a $50 billion jobs package? Which has no chance of passing before the election. Would it hurt to put that in the original stimulus bill? That is borrowing money I can hear you saying. Well you
tell me where else is the money coming from?
(Caesar, what is Kumbaya???? Democrats not only have to push hard against devils, they have to push hard against the professional left. Make a list of the policies the Obama Administration has passed so far and come back here and tell us what is NOT progressive about a single one of them. I don't know what is wrong with you Caesar but you risk defeating even those democrats who cannot be bought by the Devil's money. Men. Are you serious?)...RON
What is so progressive about a health care bill that mandates people to buy insurance from the same companies Obama lambasted during the campaign without a public option to keep the cost down? What is so progressive about the financial bill that leaves the Glass-Steagall act repeal in place. A repeal that is blame for the explosion in derivatives trading and the consequent crisis in the mortgage
industry. I am convinced that your idea of progressive is totally different from mine.
I am looking forward to you coming back to lecture me on the structures of the US congress and how that made it virtually impossible to get anything through. However, any observer of the sausage making that is legislation, will agree that the aloof and leave it to Baucus and his committee approach that led to the mandated, no public option health care bill wasn't helpful. Mr. Obama could have taken more leadership on the issue. Sometimes politics is about optics and you cannot define yourself in opposition to your base.
(Caesar, I don't mind you begging to differ and I am not asking you to join any chorus. I am asking you my friend to reflect and engage for America. Not just yourself and your buddy lefties.Haruna. With friends like you who
...........)...RON
If engaging for America meant not voicing my opinion regarding the policies of a leader I support, i will abstain. But guess what? With friends like us, you won't live in a bubble ala George W. We will voice our disagreement whenever the need arise. That my friend is the essence of democracy.
http://about.me/ousman/bio
From: Haruna Darbo
<[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, September 26, 2010 1:09:08 PM
Subject: Re: America is at a Crossroads. So is the world. Figure out which way you want to go and join
[-----Original Message----- From: Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]> To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sat, Sep 25, 2010 8:10 pm Subject: Re: America is at a Crossroads. So is the world. Figure out which way you want to go and join Haruna, Let me take a stab at some of the points you made.] Caesar.
Very well.
[I didn't say Obama strong armed congress into passing the stimulus package.] Caesar.
No. I said that.
[In fact the man has not strong armed this congress into passing anything.] Caesar.
May be strong-arm is not the right word when it comes to Obama. That's Rahm's forte. So let's say Obama persuaded congress. Is that better?
[The opposition seems to get their way with mere threats of a filibuster.] Caesar.
What way??? What has a threat of filibuster ever achieved for America?????
[The stimulus passed both houses of congress by the way.] Caesar.
Yes, I agree.
[The president at that time has more political capital to spend and instead of going for a bigger stimulus package,] Caesar.
I knew this is what you believe. First of all, political capital is not an asset to be spent anyhow you desire Caesar. Political capital is as valuable as its manner of expenditure. It is what I call deferred assets.
[he went for what is expedient.] Caesar.
I think you're mistaken. If Obama is given to expediency Caesar, he would not have run for President of the USA. You agree? Everything that Obama engages in during his presidency is NOT EXPEDIENT.
[According to David Obey, treasury initially asked for 1.4 trillion dollars. Even Kent Conrad ( one of those democrats with a bipartisan fetish) went for $1.2 trillion. Instead what we end up with is a tad bit below $800 billion.] Caesar.
Disregarding the factual nature of what you recount Caesar, it appears to me that according to you, Obama was presented with 4 alternatives vis-a-vis the stimulus;
1-Do nothing
2-Request 1.4 trillion dollars
3-Request 1.2 trillion dollars
4-request a little under 800 billion dollars.
Obama chose alternative #4. Where's the problem???? You must understand that all of the stimulus package, whatever the amount, had to be borrowed. So even if you can borrow 1.4 trillion it doesn't mean you should borrow that. The great policy-maker has to engage in sober iterative econolitics in order to settle on a particular loan amount. Do you know what the state of the US deficit was when Obama was engaged in Stimulus linear programming?
[I think the size (of the stimulus) was a mistake] Caesar.
I take this as pure conjecture and opineering on your part. Otherwise we will ask you to make the case for 1.4t, 1.2t, 800 billion, or do nothing as far as scale goes. Obama was privy to more global information than you or Conrad, or Obey fathomed. Besides none of the three of you had to do the requesting.
[compounded by the political calculus of the administration that they would be other chances for stimulus spending. Their thinking was (and this is totally my own conjecture): If $800 billion end up stimulating the economy...fine. But if unemployment continues to rise and the 800 billion stimulus didn't do the trick, there will be votes for further stimulus spending.] Caesar.
Caesar, you will have to agree with me that this is convoluted conjecture as you have admitted. If it was conjecture, how could it have compounded anything? Besides, the stimulus was NOT MEANT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE RISE OR FALL OF UNEMPLOYMENT. The Stimulus package is a positive measure to create employment, spur innovative enterprise in the transition to a clean energy economy, infuse capital into the private sector because the colluding banks (The scheme to atrophy the economy and inure an Obama failure) were witholding such critical funds from the private sector even after they were bailed out for spectacular theft.
[They mis-calculated the political climate and what lefties were warning them at the time; that stimulus spending is a one trick pony.] Caesar.
One-trick or two-tricks, the stimulus was not a trick. I want you professional lefties to quit looking at policy and government expenditure as a friggin Christmas pot to dip in whenever Santa Claus comes aknocking. You do not demonstrate the requisite discipline expected of a leader of a democratic nation.
[If your initial intervention ( the arguement on the left goes) was too small and deemed a failure, it will empower the people attempting to do less for the economy.] Caesar.
And it should empower the people attempting to DO MORE for the economy Caesar. What you're missing is that regardless of the nature of your or Obama's intervention, anyone who has made the conscious decision to do LESS for the economy, will do less. The stimulus is not meant to address the devil in folk. Just what Americans need for survival and prosperity. We had seen 8 years of Laissez-faire prior. And who do you think were responsible for the Laissez-faire and your or Obama's emergent intervention in the first place??????? It is those same idiots who Want to do "LESS" for the economy today. You must therefore redouble your efforts to dispossess them of any fiduciary responsibility for America's ware.
[So rather than modestly sized stimulus leaving open the door for more stimulus if need be, its modest size and lack of stimuli as far as employment is concerned will be use to discredit the idea of stimulus.] Caesar.
But Caesar YOU know the stimulus created and continues to create employment. If someone then tells you the stimulus did not create employment in order to discredit the idea of the stimulus, what will you tell them?????? Are you just gonna sit there and let them disrespect you by lying to you???? I don't know about you Caesar but NO-ONE, and I mean NO ONE, lies to Haruna and gets away with it.
[The cry baby "professional left" gets up every day and go to work, so they are not the problem here.] Caesar.
Don't you see how calous this sounds Caesar??? When millions of your fellow citizens do not have work to go to every day. And some of those jobs the professional left goes to everyday, are created by the stimulus don't you know??? Do you know how many professional lefties would have been out of work were it not for the stimulus? If I were the professional left I'd do overtime trying to help elect good managers and dispossessing bad managers of any authority.
[What the "professional left" decry is the democrats penchant for Kumbaya rather than pushing hard and passing progressive policies.] Caesar.
Caesar, what is Kumbaya???? Democrats not only have to push hard against devils, they have to push hard against the professional left. Make a list of the policies the Obama Administration has passed so far and come back here and tell us what is NOT progressive about a single one of them. I don't know what is wrong with you Caesar but you risk defeating even those democrats who cannot be bought by the Devil's money. Men. Are you serious?
[If you have a disdain for that, and want us to join in a chorus of hail to the chief, well I am sorry sireee, this "professional leftie" beg to differ.] Caesar.
Caesar, I don't mind you begging to differ and I am not asking you to join any chorus. I am asking you my friend to reflect and engage for America. Not just yourself and your buddy lefties.
Haruna. With friends like you who ...........
From: Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sat, September 25, 2010 3:28:20 PM
Subject: Re: America is at a Crossroads. So is the world. Figure out which way you want to go and join
Hold on hold on hold on. Caesar you said a mouthful. Bear with me a little:
Ok so let's say I agree with you that Obama strong-armed congress into passing a HALF-ASSED stimulus package. You will agree with me on the following:
1. Whether the stimulus package was half-assed or full-assed, it had to pass in both houses of congress right?
2. If the full-assed package could not be passed through congress, are you saying a half-assed package should not have been passed?
3. With the half-assed stimulus package, private-sector job creation has been positive since the bill's passing. Instead of a steady loss of private-sector jobs prior, America has been creating private-sector jobs. The stimulus was meant to stimulate the economy for that purpose. The engine of the American economy is private enterprise not government enterprise.
Caesar, President Obama was lucky to have the few Republicans who helped pass the half-assed stimulus package. Without it we would have continued the trend of Job-losses designed by the Republican Corporate interest who wanted to inure Obama's failure. If Obama insisted on the full-assed stimulus package but it didn't get passed what would the professional left have gained by that? And what is the full-assed stimulus package you guys keep dreaming about anyway??????????
The Economic Stimulus package is a request for a certain amount of public funds targeted in such a way that the private sector and government infrastructure expenditure will spur JOB GROWTH.
The stimulus package, half-assed or full-assed, has done its job. The Republican Corporate interest to inure Obama failure is still alive and fierce. The stimulus package was neither intended nor is able to address that. That is diablo's work. It can be turned on its head if the crybaby professional left got up, tied its bootstraps, and gets to work for America. I'm sick and tired of this tantrum-throwing, milk-vomiting, temperamentally itchy, clowning around Caesar. I'm dead serious. Who do you think Obama has helping him design policy???????????? Is it not the friggin professional left?????????????? Lemme know lemme know.
Haruna.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sat, Sep 25, 2010 5:03 pm
Subject: Re: America is at a Crossroads. So is the world. Figure out which way you want to go and join
#yiv1578475941 #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_df5da77c-fe7f-47d3-850d-233b96b1762c td{color:black;}#yiv1578475941 #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_df5da77c-fe7f-47d3-850d-233b96b1762c #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_2547f809-0fe2-4914-a437-3827e23107ee td{color:black;}#yiv1578475941 #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_df5da77c-fe7f-47d3-850d-233b96b1762c #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_2547f809-0fe2-4914-a437-3827e23107ee #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_ca95f893-8901-430a-a65e-f1c5bb65e101 td{color:black;}#yiv1578475941 #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_df5da77c-fe7f-47d3-850d-233b96b1762c #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_2547f809-0fe2-4914-a437-3827e23107ee #yiv1578475941AOLMsgPart_1_ca95f893-8901-430a-a65e-f1c5bb65e101 DIV {margin:0px;}
Haruna wrote:
"You know some folk have been looking for work for over a year in vain???? If I were the professional left, I'd participate in the re-start of the American Economic Engine."
This is what "the professional left" was warning the president against, when he proposed a half ass stimulus package in a futile attempt to woo the wingnuts. He did not listen to the dirty lefties, after all they have nowhere to go. Well the stimulus was passed with grandiose statements that it will bring unemployment down to 8% by the summer. It didn't happen. The opposite trend continues to plague large portions of the population. Bold progressive leadership would have done Obama a lot of good. You and I have debated this issue on numerous occasions and the president hasn't done nothing since to change my perception that a lot of opportunities were squander in his quest for camaraderie with political opponents who made no secret of the fact that they want to see him fail.
I am not raining on your parade, for I take no pleasure from taking issues with the president's leadership, been an "Obamabot" from the get go. But it is hard to defend him from a progressive point of view.
http://about.me/ousman/bio
From: Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sat, September 25, 2010 10:36:25 AM
Subject: Re: America is at a Crossroads. So is the world. Figure out which way you want to go and join
Caesar,
I agree with you. 20 years of Rubinite or whatever -ite economic policies does have its consequences. Generally, the consequences of economic policy have a life span of 1/2 its regime from when you decide to change economic policy. We changed course when President Obama was inaugurated. We are 2 years into the new policies. We have 8 years to go for the new policies to see their full force. We are now at the first Crossroad of the new DYNAMIC economic policy.
So we can change policy managers at this crossroad fully aware of the attributes of all managers, we can sit on our hands and wait until we decide to resume the new policies (A dead Society for as long as we wait), or we can buckle-up and steer full steam ahead with Obama at the rudder.
Regarding the comment about the professional left, I wouldn't take that too personally. I've heard worse. It is just that, a comment. Whoever views him or herself as the professional left must now review whether to take umbrage at that comment and go into a self-induced comma, or to work toward a different more genteel comment.
Haruna. I love you Caesar but you appear to always want to get mad at something. BTW, I want to here thank you for your recent work on my behalf. I'm still waiting for a finale on the matter. Just lighten up men. You know some folk have been looking for work for over a year in vain???? If I were the professional left, I'd participate in the re-start of the American Economic Engine. So we can have a professionalite economic policy. Whaddoyou say Caesar???? And quit raining on my friggin parades will you??? You'd think we don't love each other. Jees!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sat, Sep 25, 2010 1:03 pm
Subject: Re: America is at a Crossroads. So is the world. Figure out which way you want to go and join
Twenty months of following Rubinite's advice on the economy has consequences you know. "the professional left" ... A pejorative used by this white house to paint it's ardent base may just sit this midterm out.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 25, 2010, at 9:55 AM, Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
your fellows on the same path. Haruna. Allez-y!!!
Your Weekly Address: Crossroads on the Economy
The President lays out the choice between his plan to keep our economy moving forward, and the agenda put out by Republicans in Congress taking us backward to the special interest economy that created this mess. Watch the video.
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