Rene, going through your last post, I had to stop mid way because I do not understand what is meant by two different democracies; people democracy and social democracy. And by the way, that's only because I do not live in your closet world of fantasies and wishful invention. In the real world, democracy means only one thing; 'of the people, for the people and by the people'. It is the system of governments that normally differ in the real world of democracy.
You have already admitted that the principles that underpins democracy are universal and that really did it for me. If you keeping talking like that very soon we will all be talking one language; party led alliance under the leadership of the UDP and in line with universal standards of coalition politics.
You are quite right on Haruna. He does very well understands logic and that means you should ask no more as to why he disagrees with you for the answer is crystal clear; the notion you subscribed to is logically incoherent.
The philosophical struggle you espoused here has nothing to do with us or the struggle for democratic change in the Gambia. I rather you keep that as an exclusive PDOIS affair. We have other things to worry ourselves about.
If pdois wants compromise, we surely have given them plenty of offers on that. For example, they said they want a transition of 5yrs even though we are not emerging from a state of war; and we said have it. They also said they don't want the successful candidate to seek re-election or support another candidate even though they knew very well that this will be a violation of individuals' constitutional right and freedom to seek election to public office and/support anyone who seek to do the same; and we said have it. What more do they want; a coalition built on the totality of Halifa's will???? And by the way what have PDOIS given in return? Absolutely nothing.
PDOIS gladly embraced UDP's overtures and concessions but then awfully failed to reciprocate any of them to the extend that their position is asking for nothing short of a coalition based exclusively on their own whims and caprices or shall I say the whims and caprices of their Grand Ayatollah. No wonder when Halifa talked about building consensus, he meant a consensus built exclusively behind his personal conviction. Most people already find that to be not only arrogant but also repugnant giving the urgent need for opposition unity.
The concept of a UDP led alliance is based on the very fundamental democratic principle that the legitimacy to lead in any political dispensation is derived from the majority and that majority in our case, is with the UDP. You have not denied this, have you??
PDOIS can still take this argument away from us but then it will require them to have more votes than us in a given general election. That is how legitimacy is earned, am afraid.
UDP positions are always based on democratic principles and are always justified. I don't any objective person can say the same of PDOIS.
Like I said before, a collection of indignant clowns like the PDOIS leadership should be left alone in their loners' closet as progressive Gambians continue to dialogue among themselves as to how to bring peaceful democratic change in the Gambia.
Thanks
Daffeh
On Tuesday, 28 May 2013, <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Daffeh, I am aware that Haruna understands logic. In fact he is very good at it. But if words and phrases are removed from their contextual composition they can be given new meanings and definitions.
>
> When we talk about democracy, we are talking about a concept. Though the principles that underline the concept can be universal, its character and form can be defined and refined. Thus you can have different kinds of democracies. You can have a social democracy and you can have a people's democracy. That is why some people argue that it is relative.
>
> Again, when we talked about rebuilding a society or a nation we are not using these terms without their historical antecedent.
>
> "We know how the nation-state evolved. We know how the interaction between people who occupied the same geographic space, with different dialects and ethnic groupings, were unified into a nation with a common way of life and a national identity. We know how the nationalist movements that were fighting against colonialism and for political independence exploited the linguistic characteristics of the people in their struggles for self determination, national sovereignty and political independence. We know that these nationalist movements succeeded to do away with their monarchical constitutions and replace them with a constitution with national characteristics.
>
> "However, the drive to national sovereignty and political independence were carried out by different nationalist movements. Some of these movements after gaining power acted and behaved just like the colonialist they have overthrown. Others have no development agenda other than the fact that they defeat one repressive regime to replace it with another repressive regime. Others used people as a prefix in everything to give the impression that the people are in control when in actual fact power with all its monarchical inclinations were consolidated in an executive. In our case we see the results both in the first and second republics.
>
> "There is ample evidence to indicate that the nationalist revolutions do not necessarily bring liberty and empowerment to the people. The reason that we are carrying out struggles decades after our nations have gained political independence, is a testament to the fact that a democratic revolution which we are still struggling to attain, has ever been elusive.
>
> "And this is where PDOIS stands. They know that the national liberation struggles have liberated peoples and nations. This was the first phase of the nationalist revolution. You cannot liberate a people without liberating a nation. The second phase of the nationalist revolution is to build a sovereign nation. Without a sovereign nation you cannot have a sovereign people. It is this sovereign nation and people that PDOIS is struggling to build."
>
> I have put the above in quotes because it is my interpretation of a PDOIS political literature to the best of my understanding. I hope it will help to give some context to some of the questions Haruna has raised.
>
> Democracy has a process and it is the means by which people give authority and representation to another to act for them and to speak for them. And we know the role of political parties in this process.
>
> Therefore if PDOIS has the mandate of the people through this process to act and speak for them, obviously they should be in a position to do all of the things that Haruna has questioned.
>
> I am going to hold you to your admission that you can be open to compromise. Just don't start with your insistence in a party-led coalition.
>
> Rene
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: UDP United Kingdom <
[log in to unmask]>
> To: GAMBIA-L <
[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 8:04 pm
> Subject: Re: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in Raleigh???????????????
>
> Haruna, I like the gist of your question to Rene but its sooooooo funny that I can't stop laughing.
>
> By the way; the Nyakoi bridge is still up for sale. Wonder if Rene would be interested.
>
> Cheers
> Daffeh
>
> On Sunday, 26 May 2013, Haruna &
lt;[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Rene,
> >
> > Consensus is an English word. If Halifa does not mean it the way the English defined it with context, might he consider using a different word that explains his idea?
> >
> > You are right that Halifa does not mean consensus build around your "conventional wisdom" or "standard practices" of coalition politics, but if you would have objectively interrogate the premise upon which his consensus is built, without injecting your subjective inclinations in its overall outcome, you would have understood that no matter how coded the language is, grasping its essence and its material import is not really beyond our understanding. You are one who is making something simple to be very complicated.
> >
> > Whilst you are interested in the continuation of the system with your "conventional wisdom" and "standard practices'", PDOIS is interested in a democratic process that will build the democratic and institutional framework that underpins the civic, political, economic, social and cultural life of the people. We want to rebuild a society. You want to perpetuate the status quo. This is the difference.
> >
> > What does Halifa mean by "Democratic Process", "Democratic & Institutional Framework", "civic, political, economic, social, and cultural life of the people".
> >
> > I understand you want to rebuild a society but those who populate that society have not given you the permission to rebuild them in your image. They are telling you to unite with their fellows in order to remove a disease that is decimating them. Yahya. They are sick. And they want you to join in creating the antibiotic. When the disease is contained, they may hire you to rebuild their roads, schools, hospitals, farms, water supply. They want you to leave their minds and freedoms to them to care for. They want to accord you your freedom to rebuild your own mind however you deem proper. They want you out of their bedrooms and religions. They don't want you preying on the minds of their children and grandchildren. Make your own children and grandchildren and rebuild their minds, civic, political, social, and cultural lives. Why would you burden yourself with building a society who hasn't given that responsibility to you??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????
> >
> > Quite baffling.
> >
> > If this is your sole purpose, why would you give the excuse for not attending the Raleigh congress to be "Diaspora should build consensus first, then Home should build consensus, then they should come together to build a united front." Your partners in DIASPORA and HOME, whose society you want to rebuild in your image, they are not interested in you rebuilding their minds and civic (religion & industry), political (freedoms of association and assembly), social (relationships with their fellows), and cultural (religion & industry) LIVES. Why force yourself on a people for 3 decades, and unawares, embolden the diseases that threaten to decimate them??????????????????????
> >
> > When they are completely ravaged by the disease, whose minds, civic, political, social, and cultural lives will you seek to REBUILD? And for what reason??? or are you actually looking forward to the day when all, except your partisans, will have been killed by the disease?????? You are a political party afterall. Or are you really?????????????????????
> >
> > Haruna.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: UDP United Kingdom &
lt;[log in to unmask]>
> > To: GAMBIA-L &
lt;[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Sun, May 26, 2013 8:50 am
> > Subject: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in Raleigh???????????????
> >
> > Rene, how about your belligerent insistence on a consensus entirely built on the back of Halifa's personal conviction and wishful ideology against all practices and norms known on planet earth?? With that attitude of yours, not only will there be no coalition; we won't even be able to have a decent and constructive dialogue to engender compromise.
> >
> > Pdois is literally asking for a coalition that is based on the totality of Halifa's will rather than a compromise solution. There is no doubt that most people find that to be not only silly but also utterly repugnant.
> >
> > I get your point about PDOIS's notion of democracy which is alien to the real world of democracy anyway. So I am not surprised that you will dismiss any coalition idea that is premised on conventional or standard practices of coalition politics. In the real world of democracy, the legitimacy to lead is always derived from the majority and that majority in our case is with the UDP. This is an incontrovertible fact.
> >
> > PDOIS's 'democracy of circumventing the rules' to satisfy Halifa narcissism is not acceptable to the vast majority of the people who supports the opposition and I certainly will never give any comfort to the kind of nonsense you espoused in it.
> >
> > The PDOIS party is a collection of indignant clowns and I think you and your waifs should be left alone in your loners' closet.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Daffeh
> >
> > On Sunday, 26 May 2013, &
lt;[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> Daffeh,
> >> I am quite certain that with your attitude and your belligerent posture towards what you deemed as conventional wisdom or standard practices of coalition building, there will never be a coalition now or in the near future. We are at it again, history repeating itself. It seems that you are not learning from your past experiences. It did not work before and it is not going to work now.
> >>
> >> You are right that Halifa does not mean consensus build around your "conventional wisdom" or "standard practices" of coalition politics, but if you would have objectively interrogate the premise upon which his consensus is built, without injecting your subjective inclinations in its overall outcome, you would have understood that no matter how coded the language is, grasping its essence and its material import is not really beyond our understanding. You are one who is making something simple to be very complicated
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface
at:
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html