Haruna, I acknowledge your response. Let me read through it. I am sorry
that I didn't respond to you directly.
Rene
-----Original Message-----
From: Haruna <
[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <
[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 12:07 pm
Subject: Re: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in Raleigh???????????????
Thank you Sonny for sharing Rene's notes. I guess he prefers a venue I
am not present in to address me.
Rene, I will represent your points as I comment on them:
[When we talk about democracy, we are talking about a concept. Though
the principles that underline the concept can be universal, its
character and form can be defined and refined. Thus you can have
different kinds of democracies. You can have a social democracy and you
can have a people's democracy. That is why some people argue
that it is
relative.] Rene.
As Sonny shared with you, Social Democracy = People's Democracy. No
matter how you try to create a distinction between them. AND the reason
why: Although the principles underlying the concept of democracy can be
universal, its character and form VARIES (NOT-Can be defined and
refined). Your problem Rene is that what the people have always done
and will always do, you want to assign PDOIS that task - To define and
refine their inherent democracy). National Democracy is the syntheses
of proprietary democracies.
[Again, when we talked about rebuilding a society or a nation we are
not using these terms without their historical antecedent.] Rene.
Indeed. When you rebuild anything, its historical antecedent is no
more. Therefore, you are best advised to obtain permission to rebuild
first. The permitting process includes you submitting your plans and
ideas for the rebuilt image. And for 3 decades you have been doing
that. You have not gotten the permit yet. So you want to hold general
growth and development to ransom unless your plan drawings are
permitted. Rene, this statement looks innocuous and short, but therein
lies your historic problems as PDOIS. The same society you are vying to
rebuild, UDP, NRP, PPP, GMC, and even APRC are also vying to rebuild.
You have a plan drawing, and so do all the others. Yours has been
resoundingly rejected for 3 decades and you're mad as hell. You want to
hold the people to ransom for rejecting your stale and onerous ideas
that would bear malignantly on their freedoms, religions, culture, and
politics. But you tell them it is another form of democracy. The people
are telling you what their democracy is, but you're not listening. You
don't want to hear them. A harbinger of what they know is coming when
they
grant you permit to rebuild them.
[We know how the nation-state evolved. We know how the interaction
between people who occupied the same geographic space, with different
dialects and ethnic groupings, were unified into a nation with a common
way of life and a national identity. We know how the nationalist
movements that were fighting against colonialism and for political
independence exploited the linguistic characteristics of the people in
their struggles for self determination, national sovereignty and
political independence. We know that these nationalist movements
succeeded to do away with their monarchical constitutions and replace
them with a constitution with national characteristics.] Rene.
It is a relief that PDOIS knows all these things. AND the people who
lived it also know I bet. I'll be interested to know who in PDOIS
fought against colonaialism and for political independence
of their
community or The Gambia? I know you read about successful independence
movements but is there anyone in PDOIS who actually engaged in these
movements for independence??????? Enquiring minds want to know Rene.
[However, the drive to national sovereignty and political independence
were carried out by different nationalist movements. Some of these
movements after gaining power acted and behaved just like the
colonialist they have overthrown. Others have no development agenda
other than the fact that they defeat one repressive regime to replace
it with another repressive regime. Others used people as a prefix in
everything to give the impression that the people are in control when
in actual fact power with all its monarchical inclinations were
consolidated in an executive. In our case we see the results both in
the first and second republics.] Rene.
And Yahya and the APRC are
behaving just like the PPP it overthrew AND
WORSE. Yahya is actually abducting, disappearing, and maiming your
fellow citizens, some of them your partisans of PDOIS. Yahya is
torching and confiscating the businesses of your fellow citizens, some
of them are sympathizers of PDOIS. Yahya hires and fires your fellow
citizens at will, some of them are PDOIS partisans. Power and all its
monarchical inclinations in actual fact is consolidated in Yahya.
[There is ample evidence to indicate that the nationalist revolutions
do not necessarily bring liberty and empowerment to the people. The
reason that we are carrying out struggles decades after our nations
have gained political independence, is a testament to the fact that a
democratic revolution which we are still struggling to attain, has ever
been elusive.] Rene.
This is because a Nationalist revolution is not and does not
necessarily yield
a national democracy.
[And this is where PDOIS stands. They know that the national liberation
struggles have liberated peoples and nations. This was the first phase
of the nationalist revolution. You cannot liberate a people without
liberating a nation. The second phase of the nationalist revolution is
to build a sovereign nation. Without a sovereign nation you cannot have
a sovereign people. It is this sovereign nation and people that PDOIS
is struggling to build.] Rene.
Again, the people are not tasking PDOIS to build their sovereignties.
At the rate PDOIS is going, it might take them a 100 years to build
Rene's sovereignty is you were to give them the permission to build
your sovereignty. If you have already given them your permission,
please share with us how they are rebuilding your sovereignty that way
we can determine if we would like them to build our sovereignties also.
[I
have put the above in quotes because it is my interpretation of a
PDOIS political literature to the best of my understanding. I hope it
will help to give some context to some of the questions Haruna has
raised.] Rene.
Don't worry Rene. I know you're trying to save PDOIS from landmark
embarrassment. EVERYONE of the 50 members of the PDOIS Politburo
including Halifa, Sam Sarr, Auntie Amie, Sidia Jatta, Alpha Robinson,
Rene Badjan, etcetera, all know PDOIS purpose to be just as you shared.
You have not addressed or given context to any of my questions earlier.
And just because you put them in quotes does not give me any newer
clues. Thank you for the consideration though.
[Therefore if PDOIS has the mandate of the people through this process
to act and speak for them, obviously they should be in a position to do
all of the things that Haruna has questioned.] Rene.
So we the people of Gambia
have listened to this PDOIS narrative for a
little over 3 decades. Rene, do you think it high time PDOIS now listen
to the people whose mandate PDOIS has been seeking???????????????????
Haruna.
-----Original Message-----
From: UDP United Kingdom <
[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <
[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 9:24 am
Subject: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in Raleigh???????????????
Rene, going through your last post, I had to stop mid way because I do
not understand what is meant by two different democracies; people
democracy and social democracy. And by the way, that's only because I
do not live in your closet world of fantasies and wishful invention. In
the
real world, democracy means only one thing; 'of the people, for the
people and by the people'. It is the system of governments that
normally differ in the real world of democracy.
You have already admitted that the principles that underpins democracy
are universal and that really did it for me. If you keeping talking
like that very soon we will all be talking one language; party led
alliance under the leadership of the UDP and in line with universal
standards of coalition politics.
You are quite right on Haruna. He does very well understands logic and
that means you should ask no more as to why he disagrees with you for
the answer is crystal clear; the notion you subscribe to is logically
incoherent.
The philosophical struggle you espoused here has nothing to do with us
or the struggle for democratic change in the Gambia. I rather you keep
that as an exclusive PDOIS affair. We have other
things to worry
ourselves about.
If pdois wants compromise, we surely have given them plenty of offers
on that. For example, they said they want a transition of 5yrs even
though we are not emerging from a state of war; and we said have it.
They also said they don't want the successful candidate to seek
re-election or support another candidate even though they knew very
well that this will be a violation of individuals' constitutional right
and freedom to seek election to public office and/support anyone who
seek to do the same; and we said have it. What more do they want; a
coalition built on the totality of Halifa's will???? And by the way
what have PDOIS given in return? Absolutely nothing.
PDOIS gladly embraced UDP's overtures and concessions but then awfully
failed to reciprocate any of them to the extend that their position is
asking for nothing short of a coalition based
exclusively on their own
whims and caprices oPDOIS. No wonder when Halifa talked about building
consensus, he meant a consensus built exclusively behind his personal
conviction. Most people already find that to be not only arrogant but
also repugnant giving the urgent need for opposition unity.
The concept of a UDP led alliance is based on the democratic notion
that the legitimacy to lead in any political dispensation is derived
from the majority and that majority in our case is with the UDP. You
have not denied this, have you?? Anyway, you can still take this away
from us but then it will require you to have more votes than us in a
given general election.
UDP positions are always based on democratic principles and are always
justified. I don't any objective person can say the same of PDOIS.
Like I said before, a collection of indignant clowns like the PDOIS
leadership should be
left alone in their loners' closet as progressive
Gambians continue to dialogue among themselves as to how to bring
peaceful democratic change in the Gambia.
Thanks
Daffeh
On Tuesday, 28 May 2013, <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Daffeh, I am aware that Haruna understands logic. In fact he is
very good at it. But if words and phrases are removed from their
contextual composition they can be given new meanings and definitions.
>
> When we talk about democracy, we are talking about a concept.
Though the principles that underline the concept can be universal, its
character and form can be defined and refined. Thus you can have
different kinds of democracies. You can have a social democracy and you
can have a people's democracy. That is why some people argue that
it is
relative.
>
> Again, when we talked about rebuilding a society or a nation
we are not using these terms without their historical antecedent.
>
> "We know how the nation-state evolved. We know how the
interaction between people who occupied the same geographic space, with
different dialects and ethnic groupings, were unified into a nation
with a common way of life and a national identity. We know how the
nationalist movements that were fighting against colonialism and for
political independence exploited the linguistic characteristics of the
people in their struggles for self determination, national sovereignty
and political independence. We know that these nationalist movements
succeeded to do away with their monarchical constitutions and replace
them with a constitution with national characteristics.
>
>
"However, the drive to national sovereignty and political
independence were carried out by different nationalist movements. Some
of these movements after gaining power acted and behaved just like the
colonialist they have overthrown. Others have no development agenda
other than the fact that they defeat one repressive regime to replace
it with another repressive regime. Others used people as a prefix in
everything to give the impression that the people are in control when
in actual fact power with all its monarchical inclinations were
consolidated in an executive. In our case we see the results both in
the first and second republics.
>
> "There is ample evidence to indicate that the nationalist
revolutions do not necessarily bring liberty and empowerment to the
people. The reason that we are carrying out struggles decades after our
nations have gained political
independence, is a testament to the fact
that a democratic revolution which we are still struggling to attain,
has ever been elusive.
>
> "And this is where PDOIS stands. They know that the national
liberation struggles have liberated peoples and nations. This was the
first phase of the nationalist revolution. You cannot liberate a people
without liberating a nation. The second phase of the nationalist
revolution is to build a sovereign nation. Without a sovereign nation
you cannot have a sovereign people. It is this sovereign nation and
people that PDOIS is struggling to build."
>
> I have put the above in quotes because it is my interpretation
of a PDOIS political literature to the best of my understanding. I hope
it will help to give some context to some of the questions Haruna has
raised.
>
> Democracy has
a process and it is the means by which people
give authority and representation to another to act for them and to
speak for them. And we know the role of political parties in this
process.
>
> Therefore if PDOIS has the mandate of the people through this
process to act and speak for them, obviously they should be in a
position to do all of the things that Haruna has questioned.
>
> I am going to hold you to your admission that you can be open
to compromise. Just don't start with your insistence in a party-led
coalition.
>
> Rene
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: UDP United Kingdom <
[log in to unmask]>
> To: GAMBIA-L <
[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 8:04 pm
> Subject: Re: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in
Raleigh???????????????
>
> Haruna, I like the gist of your question to Rene but its sooooooo
funny that I can't stop laughing.
>
> By the way; the Nyakoi bridge is still up for sale. Wonder if Rene
would be interested.
>
> Cheers
> Daffeh
>
> On Sunday, 26 May 2013, Haruna <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Rene,
> >
> > Consensus is an English word. If Halifa does not mean it the
way the English defined it with context, might he consider using a
different word that explains
his idea?
> >
> > You are right that Halifa does not mean consensus build
around your "conventional wisdom" or "standard practices" of coalition
politics, but if you would have objectively interrogate the premise
upon which his consensus is built, without injecting your subjective
inclinations in its overall outcome, you would have understood that no
matter how coded the language is, grasping its essence and its
material import is not really beyond our understanding. You are one who
is making something simple to be very complicated.
> >
> > Whilst you are interested in the continuation of the system
with your "conventional wisdom" and "standard practices'", PDOIS is
interested in a democratic process that will build the democratic and
institutional framework that underpins the civic, political, economic,
social and cultural life of
the people. We want to rebuild a society.
You want to perpetuate the status quo. This is the difference.
> >
> > What does Halifa mean by "Democratic Process", "Democratic &
Institutional Framework", "civic, political, economic, social, and
cultural life of the people".
> >
> > I understand you want to rebuild a society but those who
populate that society have not given you the permission to rebuild them
in your image. They are telling you to unite with their fellows in
order to remove a disease that is decimating them. Yahya. They are
sick. And they want you to join in creating the antibiotic. When the
disease is contained, they may hire you to rebuild their roads,
schools, hospitals, farms, water supply. They want you to leave their
minds and freedoms to them to care for. They want to accord you your
freedom to rebuild your own mind
however you deem proper. They want you
out of their bedrooms and religions. They don't want you preying on the
minds of their children and grandchildren. Make your own children and
grandchildren and rebuild their minds, civic, political, social, and
cultural lives. Why would you burden yourself with building a society
who hasn't given that responsibility to
you??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????
> >
> > Quite baffling.
> >
> > If this is your sole purpose, why would you give the excuse
for not attending the Raleigh congress to be "Diaspora should build
consensus first, then Home should build consensus, then they should
come together to build a united front." Your partners in DIASPORA and
HOME, whose society you want to rebuild in your image, they are not
interested in you
rebuilding their minds and civic (religion &
industry), political (freedoms of association and assembly), social
(relationships with their fellows), and cultural (religion & industry)
LIVES. Why force yourself on a people for 3 decades, and unawares,
embolden the diseases that threaten to decimate
them??????????????????????
> >
> > When they are completely ravaged by the disease, whose minds,
civic, political, social, and cultural lives will you seek to REBUILD?
And for what reason??? or are you actually looking forward to the day
when all, except your partisans, will have been killed by the
disease?????? You are a political party afterall. Or are you
really?????????????????????
> >
> > Haruna.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: UDP United Kingdom <
[log in to unmask]>
> > To: GAMBIA-L <
[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Sun, May 26, 2013 8:50 am
> > Subject: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in
Raleigh???????????????
> >
> > Rene, how about your belligerent insistence on a consensus
entirely built on the back of Halifa's personal conviction and wishful
ideology against all practices and norms known on planet earth?? With
that attitude of yours, not only will there be no coalition; we won't
even be able to have a decent and constructive dialogue to engender
compromise.
> >
> > Pdois is literally asking for a coalition that is based on
the totality of
Halifa's will rather than a compromise solution. There
is no doubt that most people find that to be not only silly but also
utterly repugnant.
> >
> > I get your point about PDOIS's notion of democracy which is
alien to the real world of democracy anyway. So I am not surprised
that you will dismiss any coalition idea that is premised on
conventional or standard practices of coalition politics. In the real
world of democracy, the legitimacy to lead is always derived from the
majority and that majority in our case is with the UDP. This is an
incontrovertible fact.
> >
> > PDOIS's 'democracy of circumventing the rules' to satisfy
Halifa narcissism is not acceptable to the vast majority of the people
who supports the opposition and I certainly will never give any comfort
to the kind of nonsense you espoused in it.
>
>
> > The PDOIS party is a collection of indignant clowns and I
think you and your waifs should be left alone in your loners' closet.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Daffeh
> >
> > On Sunday, 26 May 2013, <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> Daffeh,
> >> I am quite certain that with your attitude and
your belligerent posture towards what you deemed as conventional wisdom
or standard practices of coalition building, there will never be a
coalition now or in the near future. We are at it again, history
repeating itself. It seems that you are not learning from your past
experiences. It did not work before and it is not going to work now.
>
>>
> >> You are right that Halifa does not mean
consensus build around your "conventional wisdom" or "standard
practices" of coalition politics, but if you would have objectively
interrogate the premise upon which his consensus is built, without
injecting your subjective inclinations in its overall outcome, you
would have understood that no matter how coded the language is,
grasping its essence and its material import is not really beyond our
understanding. You are one who is making something simple to be very
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