I am only piggy-backing on your considerate sentiments Khaleel. You don't know progressives like Moribolong. I do. I'm trying to keep him away from a bridge. They're known to jump off bridges when they are as much as "belittled". They can't fight but doggone it they'll defend themselves, if with their own lives.(:
Haruna.
-----Original Message-----
From: Khaleel Jameel <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: Obama considers military action against Syria
Thanks Haruna. You made a lot of sense to me. President Obama will go down in history arguably as one of the best presidents in our time. He was charismatic, realistic and presidential. The man is a very critical thinker who without a doubt is steered by his conviction and his ability to humble himself to listen to people around him. I an honored to have such a man as my president.
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 13:32:47 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Haruna,
President Obama realize the pickle he is in. He is now seeking congressional approval before any strike on Syria. It should be an interesting week. I can see Rand Paul filibustering this thing.
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
From: Haruna <[log in to unmask]>;
To: <[log in to unmask]>;
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 8:10:09 PM
I share your sentiments Khaleel in this matter. And to buttress one of your salient points;
Imagine if China, Russia, the UK, France, Germany, North Korea, or Brazil was the most powerful nation on earth instead of the US. I don't think we would have lived to debate action against the deployment of chemical weapons. The US has earned its cherished position as the world's most powerful nation not because it has the largest military or stockpile of weapons, but because every nationality in the world is well at home in America. It is the world's greatest democracy and without America, the UN would have been and WILL be a fleeting illusion. The UN is strong because of America. So the converse that America weakens the UN is Null and Void. Without America, more than half of the world's people would have still been slaves or exterminated. And so there would have been no opportunity for debate on Syria, Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechniya, North Korea, Myanmar, Rwanda, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Kosovo, Georgia, Austria, Czekoslovakia, Albania, Cyprus, Kurdistan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Mali, Guinea Bissau, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Mexico, or Northern Ireland.
Haruna.
-----Original Message-----
From: Khaleel Jameel <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: Obama considers military action against Syria
Buharry,
Thanks for your contribution in the debate. Strong words of sentiment brother; “That Obama who has since he becamepresident acted as a warmonger has been given the Nobel Peace Prize is abastardisation of the prize. It should be reclaimed.” Are you talking aboutPresident Barrack Obama being a warmonger? The man who still have a difficulty indeciding what actions to take. I believe if it weren’t the red line he established, he wouldn’t even consider anyaction. Well I guess the voters got it right by not electing John Mccain. We would have already been in a full blown war by now.
I am a spokesman for neither America nor the West in general,but you have to agree they get a lot wrong but they do get a lot right aswell. We can call them self appointedmoral police but the United States came to the aid and rescue of many nationsand made a significant difference in the world today, sacrificing both resourcesand lives of its citizens. It will be an insult for those who lost their lives or whose lives have changed defending democracy around the world.
The U.S stance on chemical weapons is what may lead themin striking Syria. Why did Assad wait for five days before he let theinspectors in his country? Tamper with evidence maybe. Move remnants ofchemicals into Iran? In the beginning of the Egyptian crises, U.S didn’t haveany reason to intervene.
What I think they did wrong was not calling it amilitary coup. When their military started killing innocent civilians,Secretary John Kerry and many other lawmakers including the President condemnedit. If you are calling John Kerry a junior official then I guess youunderestimate his position.
Do you realize that the Assad regime is responsible formany murders of innocent civilians since the inception of this debacle?Chemical weapons have been used in Syria prior to this time. The U.S and theworld turn their heads in all those instances. I made it know that I support strikesagainst Syria; it doesn’t matter who used the chemical weapons, the rebels orAssad regime. These weapons could fall in the wrong hands and you and I won't be ever safe wherever we are.
Chemical weapons are used against defenseless people and theworld has to stand up for them. Imagine if that trend catches on around theworld that you can do anything you want as a leader (rebel or president)without repercussions. That is unjust. It is not that complex to make chemicalbombs especially the one used in a Japanese subway killing 30 plus people. Soimagine anyone with a technical know how, building these bombs using themrandomly on innocent people.
I acknowledge U.S.is not policing all nations equally based on national interest but I can almostguarantee you that any nation that uses chemical weapons against its people willfeel the wrath of the U.S. military might. I am not all about power, guns andkilling; rather I am about putting an end to small fires before they becomedisasters too big to fight. When was the last time these international bodiesintervene in any meaningful global crises? You are entitled to believe thatU.S. is being the judge, the Jury and executioner.
The Gambians in the diaspora would have been those rebels if were within the borders of the Gambia fighting for justice against a rogue government. Do you believe any of us will use chemical weapons against our families just to make Jammeh look bad to the West? I seriously doubt that.
But wherever there is persistent fighting with rebels against a ruling government, there lies a serious fundamental issue worthy of addressing. In my humble opinion, I care less who is running these scalawag nations, use of chemical weapons for mass killingshould not be entertain and the worlds leading nation(s) should take a vehementstand against it protect those who can't defend themselves.
Khaleel
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 15:50:34 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Hi!
Please allow me to throw my buray ak butut in the debate. I must first admit that I have not read everything that has been written in this debate as the system automatically unsubscribed me a few weeks ago due to bouncing posts to my email address. I was subscribed again yesterday thanks to L management. My opinion on this issue of the saber rattling by the US and its allies is that it epitomises the West's hypocrisy and its gang mentality, its belief in brute force not to right moral wrongs as propagated but to further its hegemonic and empire interests on the one hand and on the other hand in the Middle East, to eliminate any government that poses the slightest threat to Israel and its interests.
If we go back just a few weeks ago, the brutal Egyptian army was using US-supplied and funded arms and ammunition murdering unarmed men, women and children by cutting them down with live gunfire in the thousands. Every decent man, woman and child was appalled and disgusted by the sheer brutality and callousness of the Egyptian army but where were the supposed world moral policemen? Dumb, deaf and blind, they kept mute until keeping mute was no longer an option due to pressure. They then threw in lame statements trying to appease critics. The Obama administration didn't even deem it fit to give the wanton murder of unarmed men, women and children the respect it deserved thereby initially giving the job of responding to the atrocity to junior officials.
The naked hypocrisy and gung-ho attitude of the West is so apparent. They are behaving like wolves on kill mode, surrounding the victim. The Egyptian army was caught on tape cutting down thousands of innocent civilians. In any legal sense, that is called evidence. Yet here we are in the Syrian scenario. Chemical weapons are used, hundreds die. It has not been established who was responsible but France and Britain who were mute in the Egyptian massacre bark the loudest and go on attack mode. It was a great day when the British prime minister was humiliated by parliament. France and Britain, colonial powers of yesterday, struggling to find relevance in a world dominated by the US, always compete and race to outdo each other in initiating attacks on weaker nations to nurse their wounded pride and boost their egos. The US that didn't have the decency to call the coup that took place in Egypt what it was, that kept mute and wasn't morally outraged enough to do its job as the self-appointed world moral police, that saw it fit to use junior officials to propagate its position when the evidence was there for everyone to see is jumping all over the place with president and the highest-ranking officials barking and threatening brute force when it has not even been established who carried out the chemical attack. The embodiment of hypocrisy if you ask me. Massive evidence of a crime, no action and no evidence of a crime and readiness to unleash brutality. Warped logic. The mass murder of innocent civilians is wrong whether one uses chemical weapons, bombs, guns, knives, stones, sticks or feathers and those responsible should be held accountable. What is reprehensible is the pick and choose attitude of the US as to those who pay for atrocities and those who don't based on who is its friend or stooge and who is not. If Assad is responsible for the chemical attack, he should be held responsible. However, it should not be the job of the US to act as judge, jury and executioner. The United Nations and other international bodies are there and are mandated to act as such.
The US and its gang have been itching for the slightest excuse to attack Syria and do Israel's dirty job. I bet most of the targets have been identified in Tel Aviv and passed on to Washington for execution. What the US wants is to shift the balance of power in the Syrian crisis by weakening the Syrian government and giving the rebels an edge to facilitate their aim of toppling Assad. In short, it wants regime change. It wants to institute a compliant regime in Syria, a regime that it can wrap around its fingers. This is a first step in its strategy to get Hezbollah and ultimately Iran and eliminate all threats to the hegemony of Israel in the Middle East.
In my opinion, all this talk by the US and its gang about morality and moral responsibility is prime grade USDA certified -- , not worth the papers they were drafted on. All the speeches and actions are driven by greed and self-interest and the belief in the use of brute force achieve goals. That Obama who has since he became president acted as a war monger has been given the Nobel Peace Prize is a bastardisation of the prize. It should be reclaimed. Thanks.
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 11:53:08 +0100
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Khaleel,
The joy of exchanging with you on such issues is more than what I can express. I am proud of you Khaleel ,you know what I mean, keep them coming. However, the history of the adventures of the American military will always be a two sided narrative and here we stand apart .I am glad that you enjoy LD,he is one of the most gifted Gambian I too came to encounter recently, thanks to the GL. Your president is under attack and from the republicans on this issue,this is over me and I am enjoying it.Take care.
For Freedom
saiks
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:07:34 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
LJD and Saiks,
I must admit that I enjoy reading your comments. You guysare thoughtful, thorough and enlightening in your correspondence even when wedisagree I can still learn something from your thoughts.
I wrote eight paragraphs on my last posting and give myopinion in most, my support in one and the last where I talked about separatingmen from the boys yet you consider me as having a logic of raw power. If youthink what I said is the opposite of what makes U.S as great as it is todaythen I must not know anything about America.
When Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation declaringthat as of 1 January 1863, all slaves in the rebellious states, "shall bethen, thenceforward, and forever free", he didn’t do it only to freeAfrican Slaves. In his first message to Congress on 4 July 1861, Lincolndeclared that he had “no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere withslavery in the States where it exists. Instead Lincoln used it as a military strategy. This wasevident as thousands of slaves fled to join the invading Northern armies.
Saiks, do you really believe that America supports moredictators than any other nation? Do you really believe that America goes to warfor its economical, political and military interest? I guess you can say theU.S financed its wars by borrowing money from China; actually when the U.S.government needs to borrow money, it sells bonds and securities. These are soldin the open market and anyone can buy them. If the Chinese wants to buy themand own most of America’s debt then they inevitably finance its wars.
I am always humbled to read your opinions and perspectivesin this forum. I see this situation in a different angle than you guys, but Icannot discount your take on it. This is what makes us unique and together wecan form great a team just as long as we don’t let ego and pride takeprecedence over debating issues with substance. I just feel that if you letthese things go on without being addressed, they will breed more chaos and theworld will lose grip on these issues. I have to say the Iraq situation did leave a bad taste in peoples mouth around the globe. This I think is a different situation though.
Ousman, how is that critics aka the boy's corner? LOL hope it’s comfortable.You had me dying laughing when I read that. I respect your opinion though.
LJD ouch, I lost your nomination already. Thats ok I just want to be able to walk on the beach without fear of being beaten by the police or military when I go back home. By time I retire and go back, I will be too old, these young guys are as sharp as a whistle. I trust that they will lead our country in the right direction.
Khaleel
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 00:57:38 +0100
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Thanks Saiks, your argument is absolutely persuasive. The propaganda is nauseating, and we saw through it in the UK
LJDarbo
From: samateh saikou <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, 30 August 2013, 9:26
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Brother Khalee ,
I am very much convinced that there is so much propaganda in this serious issue of war crime,we must therefore be very careful in falling in the same route.WE have had much from the media that the majority of the Syrians are against Assad and that this is a war between different religious groupings. We all accepted these narratives without much deep thinking,without any facts.When thousands were massacred in Egypt you never here such things as “murdering their own people” but only the justification of the military coup.The mass media has so much power over our minds that we seriously and in many cases refused to think on our own. One must bear in mind that ,Syria,unlike other Arab nations has a large minority population almost over 30 percent of that population belong to other tribes or religion.The civil war in Syria has seen the systematic slaughtering of these groups in the name of religion
When Carla del Ponte revealed that it was non but the rebels who used Siren gas against syrians , this was quickly put under the carpet by the main stream media and this poor lady was quickly put to rest on silence. There are compelling evidence that the rebels might be responsible, even Turkey, a strong supporter of the rebels at one time revealed that they have confiscated chemical substance from the rebels but have since refused to say more about it .There is certainly reason for both the US and the British prime minister to say that they are not saying that they are 100 percent certain that the Assad regime used the chemical substance .My reasoning has been that why will Assad do this when he knows that the whole world will react and at a time when he invited the UN to investigate an earlier case of such a nature. The initials numbers we had from the oppositions was that more than one thoudsand men ,women and children were massacred, now we are hearing that it is a little more that 300.No matter the number,the act is a crime against humanity. My other observation is that,this last incident happened in an area were Assad’s military forces were winning and driving the rebels out,why will they suddenly find the need to use a chemical gas against civilians who will later be treated in Damacus hospitals. I seriously believe that these are among the reason,including false vedioes of the attack circulated in the social medias, why many people are more and more getting skeptical of the whole narrative. There are even those presenting evidences that ,for example, rebel supported medias,like Al/jazeera, even reported about the incident many hours before it was supposed to have taken place. I dont like Assad,I dont like any leader who thinks that it is his birth right to lead.But here is what I read in the New York Times today<
..........American officials said Wednesday there was no “smoking gun” that directly links President Bashar al-Assad to the attack, and they tried to lower expectations about the public intelligence presentation. They said it will not contain specific electronic intercepts of communications between Syrian commanders or detailed reporting from spies and sources on the ground...........
With such a state of mind at the white house,will it not be right for any one against the war to insist that there is a hidden agenda.See this one too from the same new York Times
.......In an interview on Wednesday with the PBS program “NewsHour,” President Obama said he still had not made a decision about military action. But he said that a military strike could be a “shot across the bow, saying ‘stop doing this,’ that can have a positive impact on our national security over the long term.”..........
< our national security_ and we are still talking about Syria and how can I be convince that this is about the massacre of hundreds of innocent people.It could not be simply because America herself is still using these dirty weapons against innocent people and this what happened in Falluja, and we know what America’s very good friend, Israel did in poor Gaza,I mean the use of white phosphorus.These are all war crimes that both Israel and America are certain going to continue to do and no one will bring them to books..Let us even agree that Assad did it,will it not be an outright hypocrisy from the Americans themselves, we are not even talking about the use of cluster bomb .
I seriously disagree with anyone who believes that America intervene in Irag or Libya for the freedom of those people,there is no nation on this earth that has supported both financially and military dictators around the world more than the USA,it is not part of its culture.It is their economic , political and military interest that takes mighty America to war.It is their right to do so and think so.It is the same with the Russians too.I am more that 100 percent certain that had America not fear that it will further put her interest into more problem with the fall of Assad, by now little Assad would have been a history.Dont just listen to big mouth Assad.Look it took the first Africom attack on Libya by a mere rumor that Gaddafi was going to slaughter the whole of Benghazi. The back lash in Libya, and the 100 of thousands of fascist jihadist doing the fight in Syria,who will blow off innocent even in a mosque in the name of Islam {sic}, America has all reason to say that there act will be surgical and even with that, they are still not sure how it will turn out to be.You and I know public opinion is not the decisive factor ,had that been the case ,America will not be in war for a very long time. The opinion in America is against the war, it is for a peaceful resolution to the crisis even the media propaganda machine is still struggling.Tell me who does not know in the US by now that America goes to China to borrow money to finance her wars .
With all these I am almost certain that it is just a matter of time,but big America will go on the rampage, but for sure,it will not be about human lives, that is secondary.
LD, you are very right,this issue is much more complex than that and I hope another person will see the need to this ,my few bututs on the table ,you will be much more better to do this.
For Freedom
Saiks
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:45:22 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Khaleel,
Your perspective is pretty interesting, but i can't help but disagree with your premise that the easiest thing to be is a critic. If recent history in American foreign policy is anything to go by, i will argue that critics of the biggest foreign policy blunders have had anything close to an easy ride, albeit, they've been right time and again. They were derided by the "serious people" for their opposition nay criticism of the drum up to war. A lot of them see promising careers hit skids. The "serious people" who got everything wrong about every foreign policy issue in the last decade, are still running their mouths on television, drawing huge salaries from think tanks that litter the Potomac, egging more foreign interventions that they have no skin in the game. They used terms you skillfully employed in the last paragraph of your writeup to shut up critics and never lose a night's sleep over the atrocities that are wrought about by their bravado.
It is quite puzzling, but i have yet to see anyone calling for the bombing of Syria explain what comes next. Drop a few bombs. Kill a few people. I am keeping my fingers crossed that, we don't kill too many innocent civilians. Lets assume the most precise of bombing campaigns, where only bad guys and a few Syrian Army barracks get leveled, what then? Until this question can be answered, it is hard to justify a unilateral intervention on the part of the United States. And it is the lack of an answer to this question (what next?) that has paralyzed Western governments for so long. They know what it is going to take in human and material cost to get Assad out. They have no popular mandate in the countries they lead to engage in what it takes.
I understand that emotionally many a heart cries for "doing something". The urge to help is laudable. But, (and this may sound callous) Syria isn't the only place where people are dying (Egypt anyone), and getting involved won't actually change anything except "send a message" symbolism for symbolisms sake.
That said, i am going back to my critics aka the boy's corner and let the men take over...
regards,
ousman.
From: Khaleel Jameel <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
LJD et al,
You are right; the chemical weapons issue is enormously complicated. There are a lot of speculations on who did it and who could have done it. Why are the U.S and its allies trying to take military actions against Assad’s regime in the absence of U.N mandate? What rights does U.S have to impose punishment on the Assad regime? What difference would a military action make in an already troubled region.
These are all legitimate concerns and I am certain it is in the forefront of the minds of those lawmakers faced with making these difficult decisions. Some of whose legacy hangs on the many daily decisions they make. The easiest thing I found out is being a critic. I could be one of those. The most difficult thing is being a leader at such times. I have to admit, I thought it would be easy and enjoyable to lead on a large scale, but one of the hardest things I have ever done so far in my life.
Lets look at the facts: it is indisputable that intelligence sources prove chemical weapons were use in Syria. We also know for a fact that the Assad regime is in possession of chemical weapons. As to the possibility of tracking the origin used in Syria; there are ways to determine that. Conclusive tests will determine what forms of chemicals were used.
To determine who used them, I think will be the issue or at least needs more convincing. Here is my take: I believe that looking at the weapon systems and platforms used for delivery can give us the answer. For instance, the rebels may not have access to 155mm canon shells or the rocket launchers capable to deliver at a precise accuracy on targets. What level command and control (C2) is required to run those tactical operations and what is the required storage and preservation for the chemicals.
I can see the U.S. unilaterally striking Syria within the next two weeks and I support that. Here is my reason. We all see the effects of chemical weapons attack on human kind. At this point, if Assad didn’t use it then he needs to be upfront working with the international agencies to determine responsibility and reason and if he did well he needs to pay. Either way there are chemical weapons out there and someone used it. There is no telling when and where they will use it next. We are all vulnerable.
This region is volatile; we shouldn’t sit by and let these things go without being addressed. It is the beginning I believe and if they (whoever) get away with this, lord have mercy on us. Look at the history of dictators; they always start somewhere and never stop once people start looking the other way. Before you know it they are full blown grown dictators that know no limit.
The interesting thing about humans is that we can insert so much emotion and sometimes we detach ourselves from situations base on our interest. At any of these times we are sure to make our case to justify our stance, by convincing ourselves and anyone who cares to listen that what we feel, see, think and or hear is right. Most of the times these are completely selective and make so much sense in our minds.
At some point of time men and women with conviction will have to tune off the noise raised by those critics and sideliners and act on what is necessary. These acts sometimes won’t be popular or approved at first but at the end of the day that’s what separate the men from the boys. Imagine since creation, people sitting around waiting for everybody to concur to do anything. I suppose nothing would have been done.
Khaleel
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 23:29:31 +0100
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Indeed Demba, and I laugh when even the Professor is accused by knowledgeable commentators of committing genocide in The Gambia. Genocide is an international law concept, and it has a very specific meaning.
I came to law through history, the queen of the social sciences. I entertain no doubt about your sincerity in opposing human suffering, but a casual survey of history would conclusively demonstrate that suffering is the permanent condition of humanity. Much as it galls, "every indication ... that innocent children are being massacred in the pretext of a civil war (government machinery against innocent civilians)..." will remain a state of affairs to grapple with for a long time to come. There are no quick fixes, and the US went through a devastating civil war itself. If that war was won by the Southern States, I don't know if you would be running GON from the USA today.
Lest I forget again, I recommend David Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest on the US involvement in Vietnam. The propaganda, the incompetence and the lies from the beltway operators, i.e., the White House, Congress, and influential media houses, and opinion leaders was quite instructive.
During the Commons debate, Cameron said chemical weapons were outlawed one hundred years ago. Well, the US itself used napalm bombs in Vietnam in the 1970s. Napalm is a chemical weapon! Propaganda? Absolutely!
LJDarbo
From: Demba Baldeh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2013, 21:36
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Lamin,
As always thanks for the sober observations. Unfortunately, Gambia doesn't have the strategic interest to the world and so was Rwanda... I wish that wasn't the main criteria for international intervention... That innocent human lives in thousands was enough to warrant intervention. I hope the world get to that at some point...
Unfortunately, Am really not sure if it makes sense for the world to wait for conclusive evidence of use the use of Chemical weapons before they should act to stop the killings. I should probably stay away from using legal jargon such as genocide which is outside of my purview -- but every indication is that innocent children are being massacred in the pretext of a civil war (government machinery against innocent civilians)...
Really we will have time to deal with the endless legal processes but I think the immediate interest of the world should be to stop the senseless killings. It appears Assad is not willing to negotiate for anything less than his unquestionable defeat of his enemies.
Ouman I can understand Obama's reluctance in using all out war. I think again the idea is to halt the massacres and put enough pressure on Assad to either apprehend him and or force both sides to stop the killings... I like his measured response and reluctance unlike George Bush who was determined to wage a war on Saddam as a soft target...
Anyway let's pray that Sanity prevails and War has not become the only option..
Regards
Demba
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Demba
The charge is not genocide as that was never a central calculation in Assad's behaviour.
Interesting your second paragraph as that is exactly what is happening in The Gambia. Why is no one coming to our aid, notwithstanding the widows, the widowers, children without parents, breadwinners unlawfully detained, imprisoned sometimes, tortured, and murdered. In broad daylight, and right under the nose of the Ambassadors, and High Commissioners of the key countries ranged against Syria. What is wrong with the international community saying that the evidence must be conclusive. As in domestic public life, the evidence must sanction punishment! In the States, Demba Baldeh will never go to prison without compelling evidence, and this architecture is built into the UN Charter under whose Chapter VII powers any action in Syria must be taken, but the UK's foreign secretary contends Security Council authorisation is not necessary.
Demba, in international affairs, there are no saints, and much as I love the US, and the UK, I can appreciate the propaganda of, and for war, a mile off. Propaganda is a key component of international public life, and in any major dispute, you must always keep that in mind.
LJDarbo
From: Demba Baldeh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2013, 18:30
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Ousman,
The frustration and disappointments are understandable. However, reality dictates that there is a difference between being a candidate running for office and ACTUALLY governing... There is almost always a contradiction between these two because of the reality...
Now to some of us it really shouldn't matter who used the chemical weapons at this point in the conflict. The situation that created the condition where chemical weapons would be used is the main culprit here. If Assad were to negotiate with his country men and women and device a transition or power sharing the world would probably not have seen the use of these weapons. Certainly two years into the conflict there is no end in sight to the killings of innocent civilians by their own government. The world already have enough of the killings and then the weapons... What is the solution? Sit by and watch little children being massacred.. or engage the tyrant and give the people a chance to rebuilt. I really honestly don't think this is about drumming for war but rather stopping the genocide before we have another Rwanda...............
The jury is out but the world has a responsibility to stop this carnage just like we are calling for in Gambia...
Thanks
Demba
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Candidate Obama will be critical of President Obama. This saber rattling against other countries without the consent of congress or the international community is one the things he used against his strongest opponent in 2008. If you don't believe most of the progressive community supported his candidacy because of the Iraq debacle, then I have the Kerewan bridge on the market for the highest bidder. What a change Washington does to some politicians. The same characters that advocated for invading every middle eastern country and never paid a price for it are signing letters and appearing on television telling us to strike another country based on flimsy evidence. In a civil war, such as we have in Syria, who is to say the opposition didn't use the chemical weapons to get an edge? isn't that what the united nations is investigating? Most of humanity is waiting for some evidence before even contemplating another adventure into war theater, not the sages in Washington. They are all hanged up on this nonsense that once the president drew an imaginary red line, there should be consequences, evidence be damn. I am so tired of seeing liberals who were seething with rage when Bush defied the UN and invade Iraq make ridiculous excuses for Obama.
As of this writing ...Thursday morning, some Syrians will pay with their lives because America's president want to send a symbolic message. That is as outrageous as the one he purports to answer.
From: Malanding Jaiteh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
For much of the world and I believe many in the US its not about how bad Assad have acted over the past 2 yrs but what authority do we (the US and the rest of the world) have to "punish" him? Will "punishing" stop further bloodshed?
Malanding
On 8/29/2013 11:02 AM, Husainou wrote:
Sir LBD I profoundly honor your opinion but from I read and heard the weapon used against those people was nothing more than chemical weapon.
Hous
On Aug 29, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hous
I don't know what was used against "those poor defenceless civilians", and so I await the informed verdict of UN mandated investigators.
LJDarbo
From: Husainou <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2013, 14:04
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Well somebody used chemical weapon against those poor defenseless civilians. All fingers are pointing at Assad's regime who is among few nations that still have stockpiles of such deadly weapons.Those rebels don't have the resources to maintain chemical weapons . Right now Assad is desperate , he will do anything to keep him in power.
Hous
On Aug 29, 2013, at 8:22 AM, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Saiks, and Alieu
Your short reactions are not doing justice to the topic, but I am with you for there is something quite profound in your takes. If time permits, you should consider full length essays on this crucial topic.
The geopolitical calculations over this region are immense, and so far, there is no convincing evidence that Assad indeed used the alleged chemical weapons. A CNN anchor suggested to a so-called political science professor (Arab national) out of Dubai that it is indeed plausible for the chemical weapons to be supplied by countries such as Saudi Arabia, and others opposed to Assad. His response was that the rebels would not use such weapons against their own people. And he calls himself a political science professor!
The chemical weapons issue is quite complicated and there are a number of possibilities over who could have been behind its alleged use. If chemical weapons are like bullets, I wonder if it is possible to track the origin of the type used in this alleged attack in Syria. Any views, Kejau, and Khaleel?
More fundamentally, another issue for me is why so much emphasis on the alleged use of a weapon that killed 2000 max in a war where an estimated 100,000 perished. Is this not baffling, and why the huge global arsenal of chemical and nuclear weapons?
I'm glad the democratic system in the UK forced a climb down by David Cameron yesterday.
In the domestic arena, there is no question whatsoever that the US and the UK are among the preeminent democracies of modern times, with governmental systems based on restraint grounded in the rule of law and the separation of powers. There is no such routine respect for legality when it comes to international affairs. Over the past several days, the UK Foreign Secretary consistently argues that with or without the authorisation of the UN Security Council, they will move against Assad. This is quite troubling in the sense they set up the veto and permanent membership system of the Security Council. It is vital that they operate within the constraints of that system, and not use its awesome powers as a double-edged sword. None of these leaders would dare contemplate in the domestic sphere what they are advocating in international affairs!
At the very least, the prudent thing to do is wait for the report of the UN mandated weapons inspectors, and in the words of the Secretary General, "give peace a chance" in that process.
If the US goes in today, the UK will not join in for a few more days, if at all. I celebrate UK democracy for insisting on verifiable transparency
LJDarbo
From: samateh saikou <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2013, 12:20
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
K,
Just droping few Lines,East Timor and Siera leone conflicts ended not as result of militAry intervension likewise Sudan.the Un has/had a peace mission in the first two,one of which you Your self participated with A full Un mandate not only making it a legal action,but in world opinion too very ligitimate.see i Am not a pasifist ,in my response to brother khaleel i will forward the reason given by Obama as to why he need to act on Syria
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 12:51:45 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Thanks Saiks.
As brother Demba said, the results are determined mainly by the nationals and not the liberation aiders. Sierra Leone, East Timor, Sudan, came to mind as success stories.
Kejau
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: samateh saikou <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Brother Khaleel,thanks,so much sense in what you said it will be difficult to respond to you but I will try later in the day. Kejau, what for me is liberation might be very much different from yours,which is also ok.One thing is certain,I dont believe that it is the duty and responsibility of one nation to liberate another nation,for me there will be no liberation based on the desire of the people.There is no force on earth that can resist the will of the people.The mighty fascist Soviet Union was pulled down to the ground by people without guns or bullet,if it can happen there,it can happen anywhere on this earth. I dont believe that the people of Irag,Libya or Afghanistan have been liberated.Let me tell you one thing,if the US or Senegal,or any nation offer me to liberate Gambia with results of Irag ,Libya or Afghanistan,I will say no thanks,let Jammeh rule.
For Freedom
Saiks
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 07:45:55 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Thank you Khalleel,
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Khaleel Jameel <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Saiks,
Asad’s guilt or innocence in the recent chemical attacks on his own people could have been determined from jump by working with the international agencies to investigate cause and responsibility for that heinous crime. But of course who is going to extend his/her hands to shake another if your hands are covered with dirt during a search for a grave digger? U.S never blessed Saddam to use chemical weapons back in 1988 or so. It could be argued that someone in that administration has to know that they were going to use it prior to them executing that mission. I would certainly not reference wikilinks in a serious conversation, and of course key word here is I.
You are right; I will never consider war to be a solution to any situation. U.S invasion of Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq did not make those countries a developed country but has arguably not made them any worst. Like Demba mentioned, these countries were liberated and given a chance. How they choose to run their country from that point have a lot to do with their concept, commitment to their people and the rule of law.
I don’t honestly see Syria being any different but would you rather the world sit back and watch the massacre and slaughter of innocent citizens of Syria? U.S. is indeed doing a lot of supporting of many organizations openly and privately however; so is many other countries in the world. Does that make it ok? Hell no. Did you see how much Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Jordan combined gave to Egypt? Ridiculous I’m thinking.
It is my believe that there is no morality in war. When one nation comes to the conclusion to fight another nation for whatever reason, humanity and morality failed utterly. I believe that every war is futile when compared to the senseless massacre of human lives. U.S however has lost both money and lives of their brave men and women in defense of many nations across the globe and I commend them for that. It only shows their tenacity for freedom to prevail and they demonstrated time and time that they will make the ultimate sacrifice for any nation. Are they always right; no. Is it necessary at times; I will say yes but don't beat me up bad.
Khaleel
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 23:47:41 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Saiks.
I wonder how you can say the US invaded those countries even after helping those countries people to remove dictatorship. Do you meant to say UK also invaded Sierra Leone?
Kejau
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: samateh saikou <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
I will be happy to know how one is certain that Asad is responsible .lets look at the following facts too.in may a un inspector claimed that it was the rebels who did the c-attact
,which was the original case, few days ago we have been reading leaks docs from weakilinks that Sadam with the blessiing of the US did use it,Now we all know what happened in Faluja,right,which means there are nations who have no right to talk about moral
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