http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/s604858.htm

Transcript
11/7/2002
Govt still unmoved by Habib's incarceration

KERRY O'BRIEN: Welcome to the program.

An Australian citizen is arrested in a foreign country, flown to a second
country where he is held incommunicado and interrogated for months.

Then he's flown to a third and finally to a fourth country, where he's
now being held in a military prison with no access to his family or a
lawyer.

And all without a single charge being laid.

A situation, you might think, which would have the Australian
Government protesting vigorously.

But not in the case of Australian Mamdouh Habib, who's being held by
the Americans in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Both governments say he received Al Qaeda training in Afghanistan.

His family says he never crossed the border from Pakistan.

Whichever is true, it's certain that Mamdouh Habib has been accorded
none of the rights which are normally available even to Australians
accused of the most serious crimes.

Tracy Bowden reports.

MAHA HABIB, WIFE: He's a family man.

He's very considerate.

He cares about his family so much.

He used to always spend his time with his family, you know, with his
children and myself.

He even used to on the weekend, every weekend, we used to go out.

TRACY BOWDEN: This is Mamdouh Habib back in 1995 enjoying a day at
the beach with his family. It's a stark contrast to his circumstances
today.

The Australian citizen is being held in the US military prison in
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, accused of training with terrorist group Al
Qaeda.

ASSOC. PROF DON ROTHWELL, FACULTY OF LAW, SYDNEY UNIVERSITY:
Well, I think it's completely unjustifiable that an Australian citizen,
who was basically abducted in Pakistan, has been effectively abandoned
by the Australian Government.

DARYL WILLIAMS, ATTORNEY-GENERAL: If you wander over to
Afghanistan and you're engaged in associating with organisations that
are engaged in terrorism, you must expect that the consequences will be
quite severe.

TRACY BOWDEN: But Maha Habib claims that her husband had never
even been to Afghanistan. She says the family was planning to move to
Pakistan, Mamdouh Habib was on a three-month visit there, looking at
business prospects and a suitable school for his sons.

As to any connection with Al Qaeda:

MAHA HABIB: No way. No way. Why should he do it? You know, he's been
here, if he was under any military training or like they're saying, I
would know about it.

STEPHEN HOPPER, SOLICITOR: Mamdouh may or may not have done
something. We believe that he hasn't. There's no evidence to suggest
that.

But let's say, for instance, he has. Well, he still has rights to due
process under law and fair trial.

TRACY BOWDEN: Solicitor Stephen Hopper spends most of his time
dealing with the everyday matters of a suburban legal practice but now
he's taken on the case of Mamdouh Habib, trying to unravel the series of
events that led a 47-year-old father of four with no criminal record in
Australia to be placed under military arrest a long way from home.

STEPHEN HOPPER: They've had him under this scrutiny for maybe two
years, maybe three years, and they haven't turned up one iota of
substantial evidence against him.

TRACY BOWDEN: Mamdouh Habib was born in Egypt. He came to
Australia in 1982 and became an Australian citizen in 1984.

MAHA HABIB: He's so outspoken, with a lot of courage, and a very
determined person and he's not afraid of anything.

TRACY BOWDEN: It appears the Australian Security Intelligence
Organisation, ASIO, first took an interest in Mamdouh Habib in 1991.

On holiday in New York City, he went along to a high profile court case.

El Sayyid Nosair was charged over the killing of militant anti-Arab
Rabbi Meir Kahane. He was eventually found guilty of the murder.

MAHA HABIB: My husband met friends of his, mates at school, in Egypt.

And they said, "Have you heard about this case? There's a case going on".

And it was for El Sayyid Nosair.

TRACY BOWDEN: So was your husband a supporter of --

MAHA HABIB: It's nothing to do with supporting. It's just, you know,
being there and we were interested in that case, you know.

TRACY BOWDEN: Those same old school friends later phoned Mamdouh
Habib back in Australia and asked if he could help raise money for those
charged over the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing. He said, "No".

STEPHEN HOPPER: He received another call from this gentleman and he
said there's a blind cleric, his name is Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, and
he's being held on charges relating to terrorist activity but the US
Government isn't giving this man his diabetic medication.

Mamdouh became upset with this and thought, "Well, this is a breach of
this man's human rights. Something has to be done."

So what he attempted to do was to raise some money to buy this man
medication.

TRACY BOWDEN: Mamdouh Habib tried unsuccessfully to raise money in
the local community. His attempts to organise a protest for which he
obtained a permit from police also failed.

TRACY BOWDEN: Did you agree with the crimes these men were
eventually convicted of doing? Did you support what they'd done?

MAHA HABIB: No, no, nothing to do with what they've done. It's just
when we tried to help get some support for Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman
for his - because he was - as I told you, he was isolated and sick, you
know - just for human rights. It was something to do with the human
rights.

TRACY BOWDEN: But as a result of the phone calls, Mamdouh Habib
came under ASIO surveillance. The attention, says the family, took a
toll.

STEPHEN HOPPER: What Mamdouh was suffering from was a severe and
chronic depression, and he was getting medication for that.

We believe the primary cause of this depression was surveillance and
harassment by ASIO.

MAHA HABIB: He was often asked if he can work with the ASIO, and my
husband refused and said, "No way. I will never work as a spy".

TRACY BOWDEN: ASIO declined the 7:30 Report's request for an
interview. But ASIO presumably thought why are these people taking an
interest in people accused of terrorism?

MAHA HABIB: My husband has always cooperated with ASIO, and he was
so outspoken person. As I told you, he always helped people without
anything in return. He doesn't expect anything in return.

TRACY BOWDEN: So by the time Mamdouh Habib left for Pakistan in
July last year, he knew he was a marked man.

Six weeks later came the terrorist act that shook the world.

On September 20th, ASIO and the Australian Federal Police raided the
Habib family home in Sydney.

Maha Habib told her husband about the search during their next phone
conversation.

MAHA HABIB: I was crying when I was telling him.

I told him I was very, very upset and he said, "Be strong and don't
worry". I told him that they took so many things - papers and computer
and things like that.

And he told me, "Whatever they took, I've got nothing - we've got
nothing to hide. We've done nothing. You know that", and I said, "Yeah, I
know that", and he said, "Don't worry about it". So he wasn't worried at
all.

TRACY BOWDEN: And yet according to the Government, at this very
moment Mamdouh Habib was training with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Just
over two weeks later, October 5th, Mamdouh Habib was arrested in
Pakistan.

ALEXANDER DOWNER, FOREIGN MINISTER, MAY 7: He was picked up on
the, I think, Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

JOHN HOWARD, PRIME MINISTER, MAY 19: This fellow was
apprehended when he was crossing the border to re-enter the country.

DARYL WILLIAMS: He was arrested, I think, in October last year,
passing from Afghanistan to Pakistan.

TRACY BOWDEN: The family claims the nearest Mamdouh Habib went to
Afghanistan was the Pakistani border town of Quetta.

STEPHEN HOPPER: We know he was in Karachi. We know he was in
Islamabad. We know he was in Quetta, and we know he was arrested in a
town called Khuzdar, which is about 700 kilometres from the border.

TRACY BOWDEN: The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
confirmed to the 7:30 Report that the arrest had occurred in Khuzdar,
but: "Law enforcements and intelligence investigations indicated that
Mr Habib had been in Afghanistan and was detained after crossing the
border into Pakistan."

TRACY BOWDEN: Could you be wrong?

MAHA HABIB: About what?

TRACY BOWDEN: About the terrorist connections, about Al Qaeda?

MAHA HABIB: No way. One hundred per cent I guarantee you he's not.

TRACY BOWDEN: Because oftenŠ

MAHA HABIB: I know my husband.

TRACY BOWDEN: But time and time again we hear of situations where
the families say, "We know him" and they were left in the dark and this
person lived a double life, if you like.

MAHA HABIB: Yes, but to do military training you have to be young and
you have to be fit. He's 46-years-old.

TRACY BOWDEN: After his arrest, Mamdouh Habib was transferred
from Pakistan to Egypt, where he was detained for five months. The
American military then took him to their base in Afghanistan before
installing him at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

MAHA HABIB: (Reads) "I don't know why they catch me and put me
under arrest until now. They have nothing against me. And Pakistan sent
me to Egypt blindfolded until today."

TRACY BOWDEN: Maha Habib has received just two letters and a
postcard during the nine months of her husband's detention. And not a
lot of sympathy from the Federal Government.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: People who muck about with organisations like Al
Qaeda are bound to get themselves into a great deal of trouble.

J.THOMAS SCHIEFFER, US AMBASSADOR: And I think that it's not too
different than the situation that you would have had with Nazis if they
had been captured during World War II.

Until the war is over, I think that you have to be careful that you don't
put people back on the street who might harm you.

ASSOC. PROF DON ROTHWELL: If an Australian citizen was detained
while they were visiting any foreign country and then abducted and
taken to another country when they were subject to questioning, and
then re-moved to another foreign territory, in 99 per cent of the cases
the Australian Government would be very concerned, would be outraged
by that treatment, and I think most of the Australian population would
be outraged by that sort of treatment of an Australian national.

DARYL WILLIAMS: I think it needs to be recognised that the men at
Guantanamo Bay are in military custody. They're being accorded the
sort of rights that are accorded to people in military custody.

TRACY BOWDEN: Federal Attorney-General Darryl Williams told the
7:30 Report's Mick O'Donnell the Government is acting appropriately.

DARYL WILLIAMS: The Australian authorities, the American
authorities, are both very carefully investigating what are very
complex issues, both factual and legal, in relation to Mr Habib, and we
will come to conclusions as soon as we reasonably can. But it's not
likely to be a simple, and certainly not a quick, task.

REPORTER: Is it possible that this man has just been in the wrong place
at the wrong time? I mean, how can we be assured that an Australian
citizen's rights are being looked after in very difficult circumstances?

DARYL WILLIAMS: Well, if the Australian authorities thought that this
man was being wrongly alleged to have had involvements that he didn't
have, then the Australian authorities would obviously be taking action.
At the moment, we have reason for accepting that there is some basis
for the allegations that have been made against him.

STEPHEN HOPPER: One of the basic tenets of the common law system,
which is the Western legal system, is that someone is presumed
innocent until proven guilty.

They're meant to have a trial. There's meant to be due process. There's
meant to be procedural fairness. And they're meant to know the nature
of the allegations against them.

And for someone to say, "Oh, he may have trained with Al Qaeda, he may
have links to Al Qaeda", just simply isn't good enough. It's outrageous
that the Australian Government could let this occur and not stand up for
someone's rights.

TRACY BOWDEN: Hager Habib is about to turn two. Her father has been
absent for nearly half of her life. Maha Habib says her faith gives her
hope that the family will be reunited.

MAHA HABIB: We all love him so much and we're going to be together
one day. I don't know when, but when Allah demands, when God demands.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Of course, Mamdouh Habib is not the only Australian in
Guantanamo Bay. The other is David Hicks.

Tracy Bowden with that report.