Phil,
I don’t understand some of your comments here. I will say that September 11 was a watershed for the USA.
For me, living in the terrorism and violence of apartheid South Africa, with its racism and anti-racism conflicts and the bombings that happened to civilians as well as the outrageous attacks on groups of people who rightfully protested their discrimination. September 11 was a "so what experience." Maybe that is shocking for you because you lived then in an illusory world of American exceptionalism. September 11 was a ho-hum for many people and the American reaction was a joke as it seemed that the USA was the first ever country to experience terrorism and its consequences. Such naivety. This had been going on for years without USA seemingly noticing - until it hit "home."
Did you watch the piece from Biden (who is not a fan of mine)?( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02grem9YXkg ) Did he compare Vietnam and the exit from Saigon to what is happening now? You are making up stories to support a narrative that the outcome should have/could have been different.
Move on or stay on topic.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: An ICORS List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Philip Brownell
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2021 6:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A shaking of the head; a sucking of the teeth
Dear Jay.
If only government worked in a way in which you suggest—sarcastically (… I regret that no one called on you…”). Frankly, though, dammit, I regret that too! Hubris or reality? Could you or I have done worse? I think I could have figured out a better strategy. You probably could have.
What you say about Bush, Obama, and Trump is true (with the caveat that I never really got behind the theory that Iraq for Bush was saving his father’s reputation). I don’t know how you could have stood in the ruins of the world trade center, still smoldering, with first responders all around, and not been filled with your own legitimate outrage. Was it a pitch that went into the dirt or just a wild pitch that lead us to invade Iraq? I don’t know. But here we are some 20 years later or so. I hope we have learned that we cannot pull off nation building. I am beginning to wonder if we can even pull off building our own. We seem dead set on destroying it from within. It would be pure conjecture to say Trump would have done anything that he is not in a position to do. I am done with him. I don’t hate him like so many other people, but I’m done with him. I don’t let hate of Trump jerk my chain into poorly thought through policy decisions. He is out of office, and the guy who is there right now I wonder about. Biden has the courage to tell the truth? Like when he absolutely claimed that the exit from Kabul would not in the LEAST resemble the exit from Saigon? You mean like that? Or when he put Harris in charge of the border fiasco? That was a brain fart if I ever saw one. But Biden is only part of the group in power, and the point today is not about all the other things going on for which they are responsible.
Phil
> On Aug 16, 2021, at 3:34 PM, Jay Levin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Phil,
>
> Of course, this debacle has nothing to do with Trump who was the President who called for an exit in May 2021 and left it for the next guy to manage with his message. Would Trump have had the courage to end the war that he had committed himself to end as part of his election manifesto?
>
> But you are right - this is not just about Trump but about the lying politicians in the USA who keep telling BS to USA citizens. Biden has the courage to tell the truth. Bush, Obama, and Trump are all equally complicit in this debacle and its outcome in their own way. Bush - for "defending" his daddy's honor; Obama for not withdrawing after having Osama bin Laden assassinated; and Trump for talking the talk but not walking the walk (he had four years to do it).
>
> I regret that no-one called on you to provide guidance and advice to the "smart people" who messed up so badly.
>
> Jay
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: An ICORS List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Philip Brownell
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2021 5:06 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: A shaking of the head; a sucking of the teeth
>
> Dan. That is a “what about.” Isn’t it? If you read what I wrote, I indicated that several administrations have been dealing with the issue of how to exit. Please don’t tell me about Trump. I don’t care about him. Nor do I keep track of supposed people who march in “lock step” with him. He is not in office. Hopefully, he will not be running again or if he does he will not be elected. Since I did not bring up Trump, can you and the dems PLEASE let him go? Deal with the present. I did not make this mess up. It’s not fiction. You’ve got people so desperate to get out of Kabul that they are latching onto the sides of airplanes. Totally irrational. It makes me sick to think of what’s going to happen to the people left behind who helped the US and British troops during the war.
>
>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 2:53 PM, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> When was the last time you posted any outrage about Trump or those who march in lock step with him?
>>
>> That is my only response to your comment, below.
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I look at the news. Anger. Sadness. Lament. Woe. And back again. Anger. I served during the Vietnam war. It was difficult to be in the military when it seemed the country, our country (the USA), had moved far from supporting the war and our service personnel. In Afghanistan our country supported going after the terrorists who killed our thousands in the attacks of 9-11, and the Taliban who supported them. But then, how to exit? And ours was not the only county involved; it was a partnership of nations. And our government, and others, under different administrations, struggled with that. Afghanistan was never OUR country, but it became our responsibility. And now? Thousands of Afghani people helped us. What of them? Is this the terrible retreat from Saigon all over again? I am angry that it is so botched. What a failure. It is beyond incompetence. It is negligence. We have smart people. How come this has become such a bone-headed, stupidly tragic process? To me it is one more ludicrous, illogical, counterproductive, and self-defeating incident on a map dotted by the pinholes of idiocy showing up on the horizon of current events. Will there be no accountability?
>>> ______________
>>> Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
>>
>> ______________
>> Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
>
> ______________
> Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
>
> ______________
> Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________
Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________
Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
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