Peter: My point re comparisons is simply that the elections require a comparisons and choices. On another level, comparison of Trump to Biden is mistakenly made since it is actually a category error. I can’t usefully compare a dog with a carrot. Actually, that is one of the nearly (nearly!) existential tragedies of the Trump vs Biden race. Even to compare at this level is to destroy the very process itself. To pretend Trump can be president so twists the definition of qualifications that the process is meaningless. I don’t think he or the MAGA’s are fascists, either, and for the reasons you mentioned. The Nazis were committed to social services and community development (based on race, of course). MAGA’s want the government to more or less disappear, except for interventions re books to read, things to be taught, and medical procedures to be performed. Did you know that Heidegger backed off his commitment to the National Socialists after the Night of the Long Knives? To his thinking, the SA, thugs that they were, were still ideologues loyal to National Socialist principles. The SS were simply pragmatists who did anything for power. They didn’t believe in anything:) He remained a NS member and was active enough through the war to be loathsome. His wide, Elfreda, ISp?, remained a salivating Nazi Hitler-worshipper. To the extent the churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples stand by and watch the twisting of our values by MAGA, they are complicit. Since religions are supposed to be the source of morality, they have a greater duty to take moral stands than other institutions. The only consistent moral stand I see then taking in all this is against the right to choose. Fortunately, some religions push back against the right to life people. Enjoy the New Year celebration. Dan > On Feb 11, 2024, at 6:55 AM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > An analogy might help. If a discussion about the future of Harvey Weinstein in Hollywood got diverted into a discussion of whether he was a better director than Sam Mendes, or whether he helped the career of this or that actor, that would be similarly irrelevant as a meaningful issue in that discussion. Or train punctuality under Hitler. > > On trains: Trump is not a fascist, his constituency is massively anti interventionist (except what people do in bedrooms!), while the Nazis were massively centralising and interventionist and put a load of money into infrastructure. The fascists are behind him, ready to discard him, as the Nazis killed the populist wing in the Night of the Long Knives. > > The churches: where is the absolute rejection by the hierarchy that is needed rather than individual actions? All that is needed for the triumph of evil... > > I'm waiting for the Chinese New Year parade to start. > > Best wishes, > > Peter > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2024, 00:10 Dan Bloom, <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> Peter, explain your comment I highlighted in bold. >> >> Our election invites the “game of comparison.” >> >> I agree re the appeal of Trump’s blunt strength. >> >> By the way, who got the trains running more in time? Hitler or Merkel? Just curious… >> >> Regarding your second paragraph, I agree, although I don’t think of it as harshly as you. Just as Christianity in Germany survived the German Lutheran Church’s support for Hitler, so it shall in the US. You are referring to the evangelicals and the Southern Baptists in the US. The other establishment faiths are not jumping onboard. >> >> Dan >> >>> On Feb 10, 2024, at 6:31 PM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>> >>> For me, this is still the game of comparison (who is more exciting, who passes more bills...). People are getting disenfranchised, killed, threatened with death, allowed to die rather than sacrifice the foetus, and it is those who like the kind of strength that Trump shows that are complicit in this, with Trump's dog-whistle support. No other issue comes close to this. Did Hitler or Merkel get the trains running more on time?! Irrelevant in the context. >>> >>> And Phil, you are one of the complicit. All the passes you gave Trump when it was absolutely obvious where he was going means that you are to blame with everyone else, however much you are now worried by the monster you yourself helped to create, and who the Republican Party and much of the Christian church are too cowardly and short-sighted to shake themselves free of. So now either American democracy goes, or the Republican Party and much of Christianity go. And then which side will you be Phil? >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 at 23:11, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>> I am referring to the impulsive loyalty to him, not any considered judgment. >>>> >>>> In the early 1930’s, Emmanuel Levinas wrote an essay on what he referred to as “Hitlerism.” He warned that the rational values of the Western Enlightenment were deficient and would collapse as against ideologies that could embrace irrationality, passion, and emotional. The absence of the body from Enlightenment ideas of truth, justice, and the good doomed them. He referred to the drumbeats of National Socialism. >>>> >>>> I don’t think the throngs unquestionably embracing Trump as National Socialists or even fascists. He appeals to them as an authoritarian leader who will “body slam” the enemies. >>>> >>>> Sure. “Executive strengths.” But those strengths are strengths of a bully, not an executive. On the other hand, Biden has shown how to get the job done, how to work the political system. He has been able to get more laws passed than Trump. How about the executive ability to keep a cabinet members. No one resigned under Biden.But alll of them finally resigned under Trump and most of them are now against him. And Biden is a kind man. >>>> >>>> But Trump makes hearts beat and people shout. Biden does not. >>>> >>>> Levinas’s observations linger with me as I note the advance of authoritarianism and watch our politics become more and more irrational. I have no hope for us. It’s a downward spiral. >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Feb 10, 2024, at 4:45 PM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Whatever you want. Yes people cheer. Yes he’s enjoying it. But the people don’t support him because he’s from Wrestlemania. They support him because they believe he has executive strengths. In my opinion >>>>> >>>>> Phil >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 10, 2024, at 7:07 AM, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil: >>>>>> >>>>>> I suggested the Trump phenomena is an offshoot of Wrestlemania. You said it is closer to The Apprentice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Take a look at these videos. And notice the cheering crowd. >>>>>> >>>>>> To me, Trump is closer here to how he behaves than the Trump of The Apprentice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <oar2.jpeg> >>>>>> Trump DECKS WWE’s McMahon at Wrestlemania 🥊 >>>>>> youtube.com >>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BwaJ69P410U>Trump DECKS WWE’s McMahon at Wrestlemania 🥊 <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BwaJ69P410U> >>>>>> youtube.com <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BwaJ69P410U> >>>>>> >>>>>> <oar2.jpeg> >>>>>> Donald Trump Pushes Mr. McMahon #shorts #subscribe #wwe #donaldtrump #vincemcmahon >>>>>> youtube.com >>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oYb46Nxar-Q>Donald Trump Pushes Mr. McMahon #shorts #subscribe #wwe #donaldtrump #vincemcmahon <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oYb46Nxar-Q> >>>>>> youtube.com <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oYb46Nxar-Q> >>>>>> <maxresdefault.jpeg> >>>>>> Mr. McMahon and Donald Trump announce the Battle of the Billionaires >>>>>> youtube.com >>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVxVDDYwNvU>Mr. McMahon and Donald Trump announce the Battle of the Billionaires <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVxVDDYwNvU> >>>>>> youtube.com <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVxVDDYwNvU> >>>>>> >>>>>> <maxresdefault.jpeg> >>>>>> Mr. McMahon and Donald Trump's Battle of the Billionaires Contract Signing >>>>>> youtube.com >>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVeVcVBW_CE>Mr. McMahon and Donald Trump's Battle of the Billionaires Contract Signing <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVeVcVBW_CE> >>>>>> youtube.com <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVeVcVBW_CE>______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives. >>>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives. >>>> >>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Peter (Philippson) >>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives. >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives. > ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives. ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.