Both Nazism and communism were organized upon utopian dreams emergent of technology and “modernisms.”  The “futurists” were artists to whom fascisms appeared a great deal.  The Nazis presented themselves as the system of the future.   It is in their anthems and propaganda.  Communism as well had a commitment to the future. 

 One approach was biological reductions to race; the other was a material reduction to class. Nazism and communism had their own aesthetic. Look a their architecture, literature, art, and philosophies.   

Ezra Pound was a fascist. He famously had a radio program originating in Rome.  

The utter absence of nihilism is a marker of modernism, I think.  This is why Nietzsche could be called an anti-modernist. 

Of course, abstract art, atonalism and so on were banned in Germany and Russia.  The Nazis and communists did not own modernism. 

Dan

On Feb 15, 2024, at 2:41 PM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From Wikipedia:

Modernism is a philosophical, religious, and art movement that arose from broad transformations in Western society during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. ThThe movement reflected a desire for the creation of new forms of art, philosophy, and social organization which reflected the newly emerging industrial world, including features such as urbanization, architecture, new technologies, and war. Artists attempted to depart from traditional forms of art, which they considered outdated or obsolete. The poet Ezra Pound's 1934 injunction to "Make it New" was the touchstone of the movement's approach.
Modernist innovations included abstract art, the stream of consciousness novel, montage cinema, atonal and twelve-tone music, divisionist painting and modern architecture.

Which bit of this had any particular connection with Hitler and Stalin?
Peter

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 at 19:26, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
:)

There is no turning away from the fact that modernism failed.  Hitler and Stalin, ironically, were high water marks.   Ideologies on steroids.

Dan

On Feb 15, 2024, at 2:21 PM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Phil,

Show me some left violence in Britain or the USA that comes anywhere near the killing of people in a synagogue, the threat to hang Pelosi, the insurrection on Jan 6th, etc.

Modernism failed: it produced the United Nations, the Geneva Convention, the National Health Service, gay liberation.  The 'post-secular' produced Putin's, Modi's and Iran's religious bigotry, and the bigotry of the fundamentalist Christian and Jewish churches  Just saying it doesn't make it true.  Show me a modernist who wants to kill people who disagree with them, to fight a war against civilians etc.

That's the trouble with religion: start with wonder at the universe, and end up killing people.

Peter

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 at 19:12, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear John,
Are you a crazy leftist? I doubt it.

The real issue I suspect for you is in the assertions I’ve made before about post-secularism and its implications for the ideas inherent to the Enlightenment. Given that you value the Enlightenment, at any given moment, depending on the crowd and event, you might even find yourself standing up against left leaning violence (violence here to include intimidation of people and aggressive interruption of their free speech).

I could get into very tall grass and go on and on and on trying to present the argument for post-secularism and it’s implications for politics, international relations, economics, sociology, psychology (as in research), and psychotherapy.  I would not be able to do the topic justice in this limited media (email).  I am writing a book about it. But that’s going to be completed later on.  If you want to read about the topic, try the following:

  • Post-Secular Society (Mynas, Lassandder, & Utriainen (Eds). Routledge, 2012
  • Explorations in Post-Secular Metaphysics. (Bengtson). Palgrave McMillan, 2015
  • Post-Secularism and International Relations, (Mavelli & Wilson, in Routledge Handbook of Religion and Politics) Routledge, 2023 (available online through the university of Groningen— https://core.ac.uk/reader/148314810)
  • Enter the Post-Secular (Rethinking the Secular), by Michele Dillon (https://tif.ssrc.org/2012/08/16/enter-the-post-secular/)

As I said, the subject is huge and not simple.  That is post-secularism could just as easily be seen to champion ideas inherent to the Enlightenment. But it is no uncommon to see people questioning some of the ideas of the Enlightenment that resulted in modernity, because modernity failed. We see, for instance, Husserl writing against what some these days would call “scientism” and others just plain old positivism (which he also identified with a naturalistic attitude). That attitude is still alive in experimental psychology.

I am attaching three documents some may find interesting. All this “stuff” relates to the updating of the Enlightenment.

Phil

______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.


On Feb 13, 2024, at 10:00 AM, john wymore <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

ATTN:  Phil



Oh my goodness. Am I one?  Could be, I guess.  After all, I live in and am a citizen of what is known as a liberal democracy.  It is that because it was founded on principles of The Enlightenment which are said to be secularism, reason, social juistice, tolerance . The Constitution , its Preamble, and the Declaration of Independance codifiy them.  The Revolution, the Civl War, the Civil Rights Movement, the Equal Rights Amendment (which I think has still not been ratified) represent our moral commitmenmt. And confrom our liberal values. So any American loyal and committed to those values is just a middle of the road American, a centrist.   What exactly then is a crazy leftist ?

JW  
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.

______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.


--
Peter (Philippson)
[log in to unmask]
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.

______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.


--
Peter (Philippson)
[log in to unmask]
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.

______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.