Dear Peter,I think your point/question is a very good one. I also think that many Christians do not explore the nuances of salvation like you do here. What you say extends to people who don’t believe in God, but it also applies to people who believe in a different God, or belong to a different group of people who believe in the same God. Muslims. Jews. Christians. They all believe in the same God. Do they go to church together? NO. Catholics and Protestants. Do THEY go to church together? No. Why not? Because people stumble over details of history and theology. People do what Jesus said when he criticized the religious leaders of his day. His disciples were picking wheat on the Sabbath, and the leaders got on Jesus’s case and told him to tell them to stop (because you’re not supposed to work on the Sabbath). Jesus told them that they made rules that burdened people with a host of laws and a legalistic system that was oppressive but they didn’t do anything to help relieve the pain of it all. He said, “The Sabbath was made for people not people for the Sabbath.” God had built a rest into the religious system, but people had turned it into a task.
People create walls that separate and alienate. In gestalt therapy we have called that “othering.” I’m not sure that God, when you really get down to it, creates those same walls. Linda and I are questioning this whole thing a lot more now, and perhaps it’s our age. I don’t know. I know that some of our friends who are our age are also questioning. Two in particular lived in Palestine for five years, and they are not very happy about what Israel is doing in Gaza. When we talk and think together about the extent of Christ’s sacrifice, we find ourselves realizing that He died for everyone, and that includes the Muslims. We realize that nobody has every bit of theology exactly right, and so everyone is off somewhere; so, where is the dividing line that puts one person in and the other out? I know that Sylvia Crocker believed that everyone is going to heaven because God loves people and Jesus died for everyone. I don’t think it’s that simple, but I don’t think, going in the other direction, that people we might think are not going to heave will actually be kept out.
If you think about the extent of Christ’s sacrifice, there is no end to it. He didn’t just die for a few people living in a small country next to the Mediterranean. He didn’t just die for the people who would believe in Him and come to be called “Christians.” He died to wipe out the stain of sin that separated every single person from God. I think the word “sin” is inflammatory. C.S. Lewis once described human beings as little children who would rather play in the mud of the gutter than to enter into a beautiful English garden. Imagine a group of such children, covered in mud, who were invited to come into the house where goodies had been baked and were waiting for them to eat. All they had to do was to step under a running shower before entering the house. Those who chose to do so, which of course meant getting soaking wet, could come in, but those who preferred the mud could not (because the owner of the house did not want them bringing mud into the house!). Regardless, the owner of the house still loved them all and made a genuine offer to each one.
Are non-believers damned? What is a non-believer? When I was ten years old I would probably have been called a non-believer. I lived in an alcoholic home. Sometimes it was bad, and I would feel miserable and walk down the hill behind our house and sit under a big fruit tree. There I would watch the billowy clouds float by in the air currents over the Sacramento Valley. I would talk. Sometimes to myself, in my mind and sometimes out loud, and go over the events that made me feel bad. I would wonder why it had to be that way. I would tell the clouds, tell the sky, tell … WHO? That I just didn’t want to be alive anymore. Was God listening? Was God there with me? I have come to realize that he was as much there and interacting with me, in and through my thoughts and feelings—in my spirit—as He was when I addressed Him as a believer and told Him He would have to pick from among the many matches I was receiving from E-Harmony when I was alone in Bermuda. Linda’s picture came up. Her face was painted red, and she had a chicken hat on. Then, from over my left shoulder came all at once a thought that did not come from me. “This is the one.” (And she was.) It was so strong that it was almost audible. A lot of people think that God is the watch maker who set the watch ticking and then vanished. That we don’t hear from God today like the people in the Bible did. That is wrong. So, people have contact with God, and they are given a certain amount of knowledge through that experience. The key is whether a person responds and moves toward God or brushes it aside and stands outside the house still covered in mud. And of course the dialogue that people have with God, like this, is life long. Who am I to say that this one is “saved” and that one is not? That is beyond my capacity. But I believe God is having this dialogue with Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, agnostics… Buddhists in Nepal, indigenous peoples in various places… everyone. Russians and Ukrainians.
So, Linda and I have begun hosting conversations at our home in which we bring together people from different walks of life, differing cultures, different times of life. We talk about all kinds of things. We had a couple over recently, and the woman reminded me of you, Peter. She was talking about the quantum field, but she’s in the process of joining the Catholic Church. Sometimes I meet with groups of men and we drink whiskey together, smoke cigars, and talk theology. The last time I did that, I told one pastor who was there, “When you came to preach at our church, you really pissed me off!” I prefer being as transparent as I can and trusting in the process. And that’s the way I am with this whole issue of what it takes to be saved. When we look out at the universe, and when we consider the revision of physics that is now underway given the lates things we’ve been able to see, it is all WAY beyond me. God is much larger and more complex than I had imagined, and I am puny and fragile in His presence. Given that, I am amazed that He bothers with me.
So, am I going to stand up in church and say that unbelievers are going to heaven? No. As good as your thinking is on this subject, that question just doesn’t apply to the actual situation.
Phil
Hi Phil,
I honour your stance politically, and your loving commitment to Ukraine. I have just done a 3-day workshop online with people at the Kyiv Gestalt University and they are wonderful people.
I still have a BIG problem with 'God loves you anyway'. What do you believe your God's response would be when I die not believing he exists? If, like the majority of more fundamentalist Christians, you believe that I will be punished for eternity, then that, for me, is how the fundamentalists came to identify with Trump. They are both happy to receive praise and cheers and money, and say they love us, but turn vengeful if we don't believe in him (or her). In fact the differences are that Trump's vengeance is less terrible, and we can't avoid it by voting in a different God.
So will you drop Trump-God and say in your congregation that non-believers are not damned, or will you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? I imagine that this is an unwelcome question, but if you insist that God loves us, I think we need to know what that love means to you in practice.
Best wishes,
Peter
Dan
I did not say that was ALL that I am doing. I am also working on behalf of Ukraine. I am as I’ve said voting straight democrat. I am speaking my mind into whatever venue and medium I can. If there is something I CAN do, I am doing it. I can fast and pray. That’s something I can do. It’s not an empty, costless, effortless and ultimately futile exercise. (I love coffee!!) The practice will constantly remind me of the importance of what is going on. It will test my resolve. There are other benefits that are between me and God. It’s okay if you don’t understand or value what I’m saying.
God loves you anyway. ❤️😇😜 and so do I.
Sent from my iPhone
Phil:
“Do” what you think is best for you. If prayer and fasting are actions that you think might tilt the course of the universe, go for it. Yet it reminds of the “you are in my hopes and prayers” response to victims of gun violence.
I say this while maintaining my respect for your experience of being-in-the world-with-a god.
Dan
PS: You typed that on an iPhone? I can barely type understandable texts.
Dear Jack,
Think figures of interest. We are all human. I don’t understand how the people whose figure is truly America first cannot see that America is best served to have Ukraine win. Totally win. The money designated for Ukraine is largely spent in the USA building or resupplying our reserves from what arms we send. It’s win-win. It’s probably one of the clearest examples of Trump serving himself rather than our country that he is taking the stance that he has. But even the people who have supposedly crawled out from under rocks are human beings with figures of interest; so, if we are ever going to get back to a politics of cooperation like what you say, we need to quit objectifying those whose difference is bewildering or even repulsive to our own values, beliefs, and figures of interest. I wish I could simply sit on my bench, talk with God, and let the world go to hell. But I can’t. I can’t fix it all. But I can do something, and I can (what’s that saying?) be the difference I want to see. Donald Trump may win, but I am doing what I can to further a different outcome, and that includes prayer. I’m paraphrasing but Jesus told his followers that big things happen only through prayer and fasting. Will you join me in fasting one day a week and praying for his defeat until the election is over? No coffee nor food for at least 24 hours. The fast could be something else you give up so that what you experience is an earnestness, an urgency. You may not believe in God; you may though sense that there is “something” responsible for the mathematical constants that structure our universe, something like a higher power about which you don’t know. Is this not a time for trying whatever a person CAN do?
Sent from my iPhone
Hi Phil.
I’m very impressed also with your Guts and integrity. There been a hostile takeover of your party, and a green light was given to the worst of Americans that came out from under their rocks.
The party is in serious trouble which harms America and the world. I long for the way it used to be when partisans could respectfully collaborate. No doubt you do too!
I respect your guts and integrity to go against your own grain like this.
I wish you the best of health.
Jack Neggerman, Cincinnati, Ohio USA
Sent from my iPhone
Wow Philip -- I am impressed!
THank you for sharing your change of perspective.
Warmly
Peter Cole
That is a brave thing to say and do.
Peter
"You can't love your country only when you win." --J. Biden, State of the Union, 3/7/24
Philip BrownellI am voting straight democrat this time. NOT because I have suddenly become a progressive. NOT because I think Biden is the best thing we could possibly put forward. NOT because I think the Republicans have been evil all along, and I just now woke up. In fact, I'm not "woke." I'm sickened by the turn to myopia and the obstructing of aid to Ukraine that has gripped the Republican party and by the partisan politics that plays games with our country and people's lives. If I thought it would have a chance, I'd vote for a third party. And I'm not into futile resistance votes like "none of the above." I HAVE shaken loose from a previous political loyalty. More accurately I feel that people with whom I previously felt a kinship have become unrecognizable. I have personal peace about the future, because I know God personally, but I am still in this world, and while I'm here I have a responsibility to act responsibly.
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Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
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Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at
http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________
Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at
http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________
Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at
http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________
Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at
http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
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______________
Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at
http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.