I concur with your caution JDAM that any military campaign against the horrendous use of chemical weapons must await the UN investigation and conclusions. I also recognize that were that investigation to conclude that Sooriyya govt forces did in fact deploy chemical weapons against its own citizens, the Assad govt will dismiss the report as improper. We are aware that the UN investigators did come under fire in the first day of investigations. Any conclusion short of naming the opposing "rebels" as culprit will not be accepted by Assad and his government.
In the event the report comes out INCONCLUSIVE as to culprit, what do you think will happen JDAM and what would you rather happen?
Haruna.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thu, Aug 29, 2013 3:03 pm
Subject: Re: Obama considers military action against Syria
Demba
The charge is not genocide as that was never a central calculation in Assad's behaviour.
Interesting your second paragraph as that is exactly what is happening in The Gambia. Why is no one coming to our aid, notwithstanding the widows, the widowers, children without parents, breadwinners unlawfully detained, imprisoned sometimes, tortured, and murdered. In broad daylight, and right under the nose of the Ambassadors, and High Commissioners of the key countries ranged against Syria. What is wrong with the international community saying that the evidence must be conclusive. As in domestic public life, the evidence must sanction punishment! In the States, Demba Baldeh will never go to prison without compelling evidence, and this architecture is built into the UN Charter under whose Chapter VII powers any action in Syria must be taken, but the UK's foreign secretary contends Security Council authorisation is not necessary.
Demba, in international affairs, there are no saints, and much as I love the US, and the UK, I can appreciate the propaganda of, and for war, a mile off. Propaganda is a key component of international public life, and in any major dispute, you must always keep that in mind.
LJDarbo
From: Demba Baldeh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2013, 18:30
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Ousman,
The frustration and disappointments are understandable. However, reality dictates that there is a difference between being a candidate running for office and ACTUALLY governing... There is almost always a contradiction between these two because of the reality...
Now to some of us it really shouldn't matter who used the chemical weapons at this point in the conflict. The situation that created the condition where chemical weapons would be used is the main culprit here. If Assad were to negotiate with his country men and women and device a transition or power sharing the world would probably not have seen the use of these weapons. Certainly two years into the conflict there is no end in sight to the killings of innocent civilians by their own government. The world already have enough of the killings and then the weapons... What is the solution? Sit by and watch little children being massacred.. or engage the tyrant and give the people a chance to rebuilt. I really honestly don't think this is about drumming for war but rather stopping the genocide before we have another Rwanda...............
The jury is out but the world has a responsibility to stop this carnage just like we are calling for in Gambia...
Thanks
Demba
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Candidate Obama will be critical of President Obama. This saber rattling against other countries without the consent of congress or the international community is one the things he used against his strongest opponent in 2008. If you don't believe most of the progressive community supported his candidacy because of the Iraq debacle, then I have the Kerewan bridge on the market for the highest bidder. What a change Washington does to some politicians. The same characters that advocated for invading every middle eastern country and never paid a price for it are signing letters and appearing on television telling us to strike another country based on flimsy evidence. In a civil war, such as we have in Syria, who is to say the opposition didn't use the chemical weapons to get an edge? isn't that what the united nations is investigating? Most of humanity is waiting for some evidence before even contemplating another adventure into war theater, not the sages in Washington. They are all hanged up on this nonsense that once the president drew an imaginary red line, there should be consequences, evidence be damn. I am so tired of seeing liberals who were seething with rage when Bush defied the UN and invade Iraq make ridiculous excuses for Obama.
As of this writing ...Thursday morning, some Syrians will pay with their lives because America's president want to send a symbolic message. That is as outrageous as the one he purports to answer.
From: Malanding Jaiteh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
For much of the world and I believe many in the US its not about how bad Assad have acted over the past 2 yrs but what authority do we (the US and the rest of the world) have to "punish" him? Will "punishing" stop further bloodshed?
Malanding
On 8/29/2013 11:02 AM, Husainou wrote:
Sir LBD I profoundly honor your opinion but from I read and heard the weapon used against those people was nothing more than chemical weapon.
Hous
On Aug 29, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hous
I don't know what was used against "those poor defenceless civilians", and so I await the informed verdict of UN mandated investigators.
LJDarbo
From: Husainou <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2013, 14:04
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Well somebody used chemical weapon against those poor defenseless civilians. All fingers are pointing at Assad's regime who is among few nations that still have stockpiles of such deadly weapons.Those rebels don't have the resources to maintain chemical weapons . Right now Assad is desperate , he will do anything to keep him in power.
Hous
On Aug 29, 2013, at 8:22 AM, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Saiks, and Alieu
Your short reactions are not doing justice to the topic, but I am with you for there is something quite profound in your takes. If time permits, you should consider full length essays on this crucial topic.
The geopolitical calculations over this region are immense, and so far, there is no convincing evidence that Assad indeed used the alleged chemical weapons. A CNN anchor suggested to a so-called political science professor (Arab national) out of Dubai that it is indeed plausible for the chemical weapons to be supplied by countries such as Saudi Arabia, and others opposed to Assad. His response was that the rebels would not use such weapons against their own people. And he calls himself a political science professor!
The chemical weapons issue is quite complicated and there are a number of possibilities over who could have been behind its alleged use. If chemical weapons are like bullets, I wonder if it is possible to track the origin of the type used in this alleged attack in Syria. Any views, Kejau, and Khaleel?
More fundamentally, another issue for me is why so much emphasis on the alleged use of a weapon that killed 2000 max in a war where an estimated 100,000 perished. Is this not baffling, and why the huge global arsenal of chemical and nuclear weapons?
I'm glad the democratic system in the UK forced a climb down by David Cameron yesterday.
In the domestic arena, there is no question whatsoever that the US and the UK are among the preeminent democracies of modern times, with governmental systems based on restraint grounded in the rule of law and the separation of powers. There is no such routine respect for legality when it comes to international affairs. Over the past several days, the UK Foreign Secretary consistently argues that with or without the authorisation of the UN Security Council, they will move against Assad. This is quite troubling in the sense they set up the veto and permanent membership system of the Security Council. It is vital that they operate within the constraints of that system, and not use its awesome powers as a double-edged sword. None of these leaders would dare contemplate in the domestic sphere what they are advocating in international affairs!
At the very least, the prudent thing to do is wait for the report of the UN mandated weapons inspectors, and in the words of the Secretary General, "give peace a chance" in that process.
If the US goes in today, the UK will not join in for a few more days, if at all. I celebrate UK democracy for insisting on verifiable transparency
LJDarbo
From: samateh saikou <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2013, 12:20
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
K,
Just droping few Lines,East Timor and Siera leone conflicts ended not as result of militAry intervension likewise Sudan.the Un has/had a peace mission in the first two,one of which you Your self participated with A full Un mandate not only making it a legal action,but in world opinion too very ligitimate.see i Am not a pasifist ,in my response to brother khaleel i will forward the reason given by Obama as to why he need to act on Syria
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 12:51:45 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Thanks Saiks.
As brother Demba said, the results are determined mainly by the nationals and not the liberation aiders. Sierra Leone, East Timor, Sudan, came to mind as success stories.
Kejau
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: samateh saikou <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Brother Khaleel,thanks,so much sense in what you said it will be difficult to respond to you but I will try later in the day. Kejau, what for me is liberation might be very much different from yours,which is also ok.One thing is certain,I dont believe that it is the duty and responsibility of one nation to liberate another nation,for me there will be no liberation based on the desire of the people.There is no force on earth that can resist the will of the people.The mighty fascist Soviet Union was pulled down to the ground by people without guns or bullet,if it can happen there,it can happen anywhere on this earth. I dont believe that the people of Irag,Libya or Afghanistan have been liberated.Let me tell you one thing,if the US or Senegal,or any nation offer me to liberate Gambia with results of Irag ,Libya or Afghanistan,I will say no thanks,let Jammeh rule.
For Freedom
Saiks
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 07:45:55 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Thank you Khalleel,
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Khaleel Jameel <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
Saiks,
Asad’s guilt or innocence in the recent chemical attacks on his own people could have been determined from jump by working with the international agencies to investigate cause and responsibility for that heinous crime. But of course who is going to extend his/her hands to shake another if your hands are covered with dirt during a search for a grave digger? U.S never blessed Saddam to use chemical weapons back in 1988 or so. It could be argued that someone in that administration has to know that they were going to use it prior to them executing that mission. I would certainly not reference wikilinks in a serious conversation, and of course key word here is I.
You are right; I will never consider war to be a solution to any situation. U.S invasion of Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq did not make those countries a developed country but has arguably not made them any worst. Like Demba mentioned, these countries were liberated and given a chance. How they choose to run their country from that point have a lot to do with their concept, commitment to their people and the rule of law.
I don’t honestly see Syria being any different but would you rather the world sit back and watch the massacre and slaughter of innocent citizens of Syria? U.S. is indeed doing a lot of supporting of many organizations openly and privately however; so is many other countries in the world. Does that make it ok? Hell no. Did you see how much Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Jordan combined gave to Egypt? Ridiculous I’m thinking.
It is my believe that there is no morality in war. When one nation comes to the conclusion to fight another nation for whatever reason, humanity and morality failed utterly. I believe that every war is futile when compared to the senseless massacre of human lives. U.S however has lost both money and lives of their brave men and women in defense of many nations across the globe and I commend them for that. It only shows their tenacity for freedom to prevail and they demonstrated time and time that they will make the ultimate sacrifice for any nation. Are they always right; no. Is it necessary at times; I will say yes but don't beat me up bad.
Khaleel
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 23:47:41 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
To: [log in to unmask]
Saiks.
I wonder how you can say the US invaded those countries even after helping those countries people to remove dictatorship. Do you meant to say UK also invaded Sierra Leone?
Kejau
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: samateh saikou <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [G_L] Obama considers military action against Syria
I will be happy to know how one is certain that Asad is responsible .lets look at the following facts too.in may a un inspector claimed that it was the rebels who did the c-attact
,which was the original case, few days ago we have been reading leaks docs from weakilinks that Sadam with the blessiing of the US did use it,Now we all know what happened in Faluja,right,which means there are nations who have no right to talk about moral
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