Habib!

How are we "both on the same side"? We are not even talking about the same thing here. What has religion got to do with the whole exercise except to befug the issue when one talks about Arab and Latino racism?

So what did you mean when you said that I am right about slavery and she is right about ISLAM? Who's talking about ISLAM?

Moore talked about ARAB RACISM. Period!

What I want the lady to tell me is where Moore equated Arabness with Islam and unless she does that I am wont to believe that she confuses 'Arab' with 'Islam'

If you want a debate about Islam and slavery in general, that's not what the original theme was about either but you may start the ball rolling on that. As I write, ARABS are holding Black Africans as slaves on the continent. That's a FACT. If anybody wants to translate that into Muslims are holding Balck African as slaves it's not my problem.

Regards,

Kabir.

Habib Ghanim <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Brother Kabir and sister Ginny

You are both on the same side . Amadou is right about the slavery issue and you are right about Islam. It dates preIslam , pre Christianity and Judiasm , and still exits in many different ways and practiced by all races not only Arabs from Haiti to Honkong. Child labor prostitution terrorism and many other financial enslavements is rampant worldwide espeically in our so called civilized world.

It comes in different shapes and forms like the cast and class systems  like the ones in India and many parts of Africa including our country.It is true that All religions forbid slavery but some deviant or pretending believers of all these same faiths still do practice this horrible tradition or concept. Nowadays things like lynching is done in a different way . AsK Clarence Thomas , he knows when he was being confirmed as a supreme court judge.

Secondly I beg you all to move on as this is an issue that even the prophets of God from Moses to Jesus and Mohamed (peace be upon them) could not solve,  so as you both have said your minds I hope this concludes this topic .

Thank you all and have a pleasant saturday afternoon

Habib Diab Ghanim





>From: Amadu Kabir Njie <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list              <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Fwd: [Network Africa Sweden] Racism- Latin America
>Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:47:00 +0100
>
>Miss Quick!
>
>You always seem too quick to jump to conclusions. Now I am begining to wonder about your ability to read and comprehend, or may be it is I who lacks that ability?The original e-mail from [Network Africa Sweden] is forwarded below. You wrote:
>
>"...      For one thing, I do not confuse Arab with Islam.  And in fact, it
>was, in fact, Moore who brought up the Arab / Islam thing when he
>mentioned that he had spent time in Egypt and around Muslims.  I can't
>remember his exact quote, and I don't feel like going back and digging
>it out of my archives.  But he did mention the Muslimness of both the
>Arabs in Egypt, and the Arabs who controlled Spain..."
>
>Please help me find in it where Moore made the association between Arabs and Islam. In fact I see no single mention of the word 'Islam' throughout the article.
>
>This just goes further to bolster my argument that when someone say 'Arab' you hear 'Islam' and when someone says 'Islam' it's the other way round.
>
>Now the least I expect from a self-proclaimed devout Muslim is truthfullness. So stop bringing up all those irrelevant issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with what the gist of author's original piece was about and show me where he equated Arabs and Islam. The full article is culled below.
>
>Regards,
>
>Kabir.
>
>
>nkrumah lumumba <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>To: [log in to unmask]
>From: "nkrumah lumumba" <[log in to unmask]>
>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:55:36 +0000
>Subject: [Network Africa Sweden] Racism- Latin America
>
>The Subtle Racism of Latin America
>Carlos Moore sees a disguised racism permeating Latin
>American society, invented by Arabs in the Iberian
>Peninsula.
>
>Anson Musselman
>
>While many believe that Arab and Latin American
>societies have a better track record in regard to race
>than the United States, Dr. Carlos Moore, resident
>scholar at Brazil's Universidade do Estado da Bahia,
>contends that this impression is wrong. Moore, a black
>man raised in pre-Castro Cuba, believes that while
>these societies may look color blind on the surface,
>race actually dominates every aspect of social and
>political life. Moore is best known for his book
>Castro, the Blacks, and Africa (CAAS, 1989), and
>African Presence in the Americas, co-edited with
>Shawna Moore and Tanya R. Sanders (Africa World Press,
>1996).
>
>This lecture took place in UCLA's Haynes Hall May 19
>and was sponsored by the African Studies Center, the
>Ralph Bunche Center for African American Studies, and
>the UCLA Department of Political Science.
>
>The Arab Model
>
>Moore in his youth set out to find what historical
>events led to the establishment of a racial hierarchy
>in Latin America, where race mixing is the norm, yet
>lightness and darkness of skin still matters. His
>findings led him to believe that the paradigms of race
>in Latin America are directly descended from the time
>when Arabs controlled the Iberian Peninsula, the
>homeland of Spanish and Portuguese colonialism in the
>Americas.
>
>Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
>(today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
>culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
>By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
>majority of Muslims from Iberia.
>
>"I have had the privilege to have lived in Arab
>countries," Moore said, "and to be shocked by the
>extraordinary similarities to Latin America of
>structures of race in countries like Egypt. It was
>familiar ground. I was twenty-one, had just left Cuba.
>I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
>how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
>the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
>Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
>structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
>a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
>Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
>
>Arab Slavery on the Iberian Peninsula
>
>“Through the Sahara alone," Moore said, "four million
>blacks were brought over to the Arab Iberian
>Peninsula. The Arab world was a world in which slavery
>was essential." Some scholars are skeptical of the
>size of the numbers Moore cites.
>
>Moore sees the export of Arab-model slavery and race
>relations to the New World by the Spanish and
>Portuguese, who had absorbed it during the Muslim
>occupation of Iberia. "The conquest of America begins
>when the Arabs are expelled from this part of the
>world by Europeans." Moore added that the Reconquista
>was accomplished by south Europeans who had already
>had long experience of intermarriage or less formal
>sexual relations with Arab and African peoples and who
>"are perfectly accustomed to a situation of
>familiarity of race relations between black and white
>in a situation of superiority and inferiority."
>
>Moore sees two alternate models of racial rule. The
>one more familiar in the Northern Hemisphere is the
>Anglo-American one, where power relations and
>socio-political structures were based on two distinct
>groups: the Northern European and African prototypes.
>"We have a stable racial social order achieved and
>perpetuated through enforcement of an inflexible
>two-track system whereby extreme racial polarization
>is involved between two opposing somatic prototypes:
>The proto-Nordic types with blonde hair, pale white
>skin, and sharp facial features, and the proto-African
>type, with crispy hair, very black skin, voluptuous
>facial features."
>
>Interracial Sex and Commingling
>
>The Arab-Spanish-Latin American pattern was far more
>permissive of interracial sex and incorporating racial
>differences, but, Moore adds, not without its own
>light-skinned hierarchy. Moore asserts that racial
>mixing was a very normal occurrence in the Arab world;
>socially acceptable racial mixing, however, only goes
>in one direction. Moore postulates the existence in
>Latin America of a "racial philosophy of eugenics"
>that encourages a "unilateral … sexual commingling
>between white [or light skinned] males and the females
>of the physically conquered and socially inferior
>race."
>
>Like the classification of "colored" in the former
>Apartheid South Africa, which was ranked as a higher
>class than the pure African, Moore sees the mixed race
>"mulatto" in Arab and Latin American society as a
>higher class than the purebred African or Indian. "The
>mulatto has a particular rank in society. In Arab
>societies there are all sorts of ranks. There are
>infidels, those who are believers, and the mulatto
>category which is viewed as a ladder for ascension."
>
>The racial mixing that took place in Latin America
>that was socially acceptable, Moore said, was only
>between white males and the black or American Indian
>females.
>
>According to Moore, the possibility of a black or
>American Indian man having sex with a white woman
>would have been destabilizing to the state because the
>black or American Indian penetrating the female would
>have been viewed as flipping the established racial
>hierarchy on its head.
>
>Mixed race children from white fathers and dark
>mothers were totally accepted into society, according
>to Moore. In each generation males are expected or
>permitted to marry females of their own skin color or
>darker. "The production of a stable intermediary
>swarthy white type is very important to the Latin-Arab
>model of race relations. It is so important that the
>state encourages it." Moore views this as "the sexual
>enslavement of black women by the conquering white
>males."
>
>The First Slaves in the Americas Were Imported from
>Spain
>
>The system developed in Iberia under Arab rule was
>exported to the Americas as part of the Spanish and
>Portuguese conquest in the sixteenth century. Moore
>says that the Portuguese and Spanish added American
>Indians to their already-enslaved black populations
>brought from Iberia. “The first black slaves that came
>to the Americas were not slaves from Africa, but black
>slaves that came from the Iberian Peninsula, who spoke
>Portuguese and Spanish."
>
>Moore told the audience that the Northern Europeans,
>“inventors of Apartheid," have traditionally feared
>the black person, while Europeans from the Iberian
>Peninsula, as well as their descendants in Latin
>America, have no such fear. As he put it, "in the U.S.
>one drop of black blood makes someone black. In Latin
>America one drop of white blood makes you white."
>
>When Spain and Portugal conquered vast parts of Latin
>America, Moore said, they established a black slave
>trade, continued the mixing of the races with white
>Europeans at the top of the social ladder and American
>Indian and African descendants at the bottom. Whites
>lived in close physical proximity to black and
>American Indian populations, however those of a white
>European ancestry (Spanish and Portuguese) had the
>political and economic power. The lightness or
>darkness of one’s skin strongly affected one’s social
>rank.
>
>The Rules of the Subtle Race Game
>
>Moore recalled that Hollywood wanted to make a film
>about Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. They had cast an
>African American in the role, only to have to pull the
>plug on the project when Sadat objected to a black man
>portraying him. Sadat, being the leader of Egypt,
>considered himself white, according to Moore. Moore
>said there are black-looking Arabs and Latin Americans
>who consider themselves white because they have some
>distant white ancestry. “The only problem is when they
>go to New York."
>
>Moore expressed some concern about the implications
>for race relations in the United States posed by the
>increasing immigration from Mexico and Latin America.
>While he clearly regarded the often overt racism of
>the North as perhaps even more objectionable than the
>Arab-Spanish form in the South, he saw a particular
>problem in the general Latin American denial of race
>as an issue. This has made it socially disreputable to
>raise demands for reform in Latin America around race
>issues.
>
>Moore concluded by expressing the hope that these new
>Latin American immigrants will not import their
>Arab-Latin American model of race relations, as with
>it comes a false color blindness. To Moore, the U.S.
>model of dealing with race, while far from ideal,
>enables groups to make demands on society, and to be
>able to work for change.
>
>African Studies Center
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Senaste nytt från motormarknaden http://motor.msn.se/
>
>
>
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