*Perimeters should read PARAMETERS. *
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Modou Mboge <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> LJD,
>
> I hope you will not get bored or annoyed with me saying how marvelous and
> clear you are in elucidating your points in many a discussion on these
> forums. As you insisted we need not hyperventilate on such personal issues
> such as grown consenting adults choosing to smooch with one and other in
> broad day light along Kairaba Avenue; whether it is two males, a male and
> female or two females. As long as Gambia remains with its* secular
> arrangments as per her constitution people should be allowed to live the
> life they chose** as long as it is within the perimeters of the law*.
>
> Live and let live! Let people be. God knows best.
>
> Thanks once again bro for your simplicity and clarity.
>
> Best,
>
> Mboge
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Bailo
>>
>> Again, thanks for your thoughts on homosexuality in the context of Gambian
>> public life.
>>
>> Now that we are in apparent agreement about the universal existence
>> of homosexuality, my remaining interest is limited to how our polity should
>> interface with its homosexual community.
>>
>> On this question, I remain of the conviction that it is indefensible to
>> arrange our public space so as to unlawfully discriminate against any
>> section of Gambian society on irrelevant considerations such as religion,
>> sexuality, and ethnicity.
>>
>> This notwithstanding, I maintain that on homosexuality per se, I shared
>> neither a personal "position", nor "perspective". On this, Mboge, and ATT Jr
>> read me as intended. I respect your own interpretation, but for
>> me, homosexuality is significant only in the context of public law.
>>
>> About religious buildings on State House grounds, there are different
>> Christian denominations in The Gambia. Under the Muslim umbrella, the
>> Ahmadiyya question lies in the background, uncomfortably exciting the
>> faculties 'mainstream' Muslims. I am unsure we have enough space on State
>> House grounds for all these denominations. And even if we do, the
>> flash-point lies in religious doctrine.
>>
>> In the event Harunasilo attracts a thousand adherents, and insists on a
>> structure alongside the Professor's mosque, an Ahmadiyya mosque, a Catholic
>> church, a Methodist church, what are we suppose to do about ATT's demand?
>> Denying him redress may constitute a formula for trouble. Outside its police
>> power of maintaining stability between conflicting persuasions, I reject any
>> state involvement in religious matters. Religion is properly a private
>> matter.
>>
>> About England, and Saudi Arabia, I am unsure they represent compelling
>> cases against secularism. The Church of England, of which the Monarch
>> is head, grew out of a political dispute between Henry VIII, and Rome, the
>> then centre of global Christianity. Whether it was a deliberately engineered
>> conflict to break away from mighty Rome, the fact remains that the immediate
>> catalyst for the separation was the refusal of Rome to bless Henry VIII's
>> endless forays into 'holy matrimony'. In any case, the Church of England is
>> constitutionally recognised as the established Church of the realm.
>> Constitutionally!
>>
>> As the global centre of Islam, Saudi Arabia is differently situated. It is
>> an 'Islamic nation'. Here again, that condition is legally enshrined!
>>
>> In The Gambia, the law says we are a secular Republic, and equally
>> protected by law.
>>
>> Finally, I reassure you that under different circumstances, Bailo, and
>> LJD, could spend the whole day discussing the beauties, and practical
>> benefits of Islam. I completed reading the Quran before going to high school
>> in 1974, and never a day went by that I did not say my 5 prayers. I still
>> read the Quran daily. Except for reason of illness in 2005, I fasted every
>> single Ramadan since 1973, and God willing, I intend to do so for the rest
>> of my life. But for the concern that you may be inching to to the view that
>> I am a non-believer, I would not have written the instant paragraph. On the
>> positive side, I hope you now understand the context of my assertion that
>> with God on my side, there is no realistic danger of my conversion to
>> Harunasilo,
>>
>> I am a practising Muslim, but my religion, essentially a private
>> relationship with the Almighty, will, God willing, forever remain separate
>> from my interest in public questions. I cannot see myself ever supporting
>> discriminatory legislation, either on grounds of religion, sexuality, or
>> ethnicity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> LJDarbo
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sun, 7/3/10, bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The first recorded Lesbian marriage in Mangambougou, Mali. I
>> say happy gammy!
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 14:20
>>
>>
>> LJD,
>>
>> You stated in your latest contribution to this thread as follows:
>>
>> "Bailo
>>
>> Like our friend Mboge, I have not shared any "position", or,
>> "perspective", on homosexuality. I regard his analytical response to you as
>> a cogent clarification of my view." (LJD)
>>
>> However prior to the above quote, you had summed as follows:
>>
>>
>> "Needless to say, I reject all public attempts at policing homosexuality.
>>
>>
>> Our conflicting views on this needlessly divisive issue
>> notwithstanding......................." (LJD)
>>
>> So therefore I do not agree when you stated that "I "refering to yourself"have not shared any "position", or, "perspective", on homosexuality."
>>
>> Whereas I had shared my opinion that homosexuality should be outlawed in
>> The Gambia, your perspective on the subject-matter is you "reject all
>> public attempts at policing homosexuality."
>>
>> You asked:
>>
>> "In the event of a Christian President of the Republic, how would you
>> view a church on State House grounds? No prize for guessing I oppose the
>> Professor's State House mosque on grounds it discriminates against
>> non-Muslims and contravenes our secular Constitution." (LJD)
>>
>> I think it would be a superb undertaking to build a Church on State House
>> grounds alongside the existing Mosque to also manifest the admirable state
>> of peaceful co-existence between Moslems and Christians in the Gambia.
>> Moslems could have their turn for the 5 daily prayers and Fridays and
>> Christians on Sundays. I suppose that were the Swiss predominantly Moslems,
>> they would never have banned the building of Mosques with minarets. Mosques,
>> Churches, Synagogues and Temples could be erected whereever on earth for the
>> proximity of worshippers. I do not however think that it would for instance
>> make any sense to build a synagogue on State House grounds since there are
>> hardly any Jews within the Gambia.
>>
>> I don't think that our 'secular constitution' has been violated with the
>> building of a place of worship on State House grounds. I believe the State
>> could provide resources for the building of faith institutions be they faith
>> schools or churches or mosques.
>>
>> One ought to be mindful not to fall for the secular extremism strand
>> which insists that State and religion should be poles apart. The head of
>> State of the UK is also officially known as the "Defender of the Faith"
>> meaning Defender of Anglicanism. Similarly, the King of Saudi Arabia is the
>> "Custodian of the Holy Mosques" of Islam. Methinks that's perfectly normal.
>> Secularism is simply another version of beliefs just like Christianity,
>> Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. It is the new religion!
>>
>> Notwitstanding that homosexuality is legal elsewhere, I believe that it
>> should continue to be illegalised in the Gambia.
>>
>> I think that Harunasilo is for Haruna alone.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Bailo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Change to:
>> ChangeIgnoreClose
>> Suggestions:
>> Change this wordChange all occurrencesIgnore this wordIgnore all
>> occurrences
>>
>> From: Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The first recorded Lesbian marriage in Mangambougou, Mali. I
>> say happy gammy!
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Friday, 5 March, 2010, 12:24
>>
>> Bailo
>>
>> Like our friend Mboge, I have not shared any "position", or,
>> "perspective", on homosexuality. I regard his analytical response to you as
>> a cogent clarification of my view.
>>
>> And ATT Jr has synthesised my argument admirably.
>>
>> To recap, what I said was limited to the contention that:
>>
>> 1) homosexuality exists in societies the world over, and that it is not
>> "decadence" exclusive to "Western" communities.
>>
>> 2) under equal protection doctrine, and law, it is indefensible,
>> religious "moral" imperatives notwithstanding, to use public power as an
>> instrument of oppression against a particular section of any polity.
>>
>> I should add that as a multi-ethnic, and multi-religious society, the
>> "cultural" argument against homosexuality is quite weak for the simple
>> reason there is no single Gambian "culture".
>>
>> In the event of a Christian President of the Republic, how would you
>> view a church on State House grounds? No prize for guessing I oppose the
>> Professor's State House mosque on grounds it discriminates against
>> non-Muslims and contravenes our secular Constitution.
>>
>> I reassure you there is absolutely no danger of my conversion to
>> Harunasilo, but I admit to having broader fears rooted in the counsel of
>> Martin Niemoeller, a pastor of the German Evangelical Lutheran Church in the
>> Nazi era:
>>
>>
>>
>> *"In Germany , the Nazis first came for the communists, and I did not
>> speak *
>>
>> *up, because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I *
>>
>> *did not speak up, because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade
>> unionists, and I did not speak up, because I was not a trade unionist. Then
>> they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak up, because I was not a
>> Catholic. Then they came for me … and by that time, there was no one to
>> speak up for anyone". *.
>> Gambian security chiefs would attest to the contention that intolerance
>> and oppression in public space has no friends, only sequential victims.
>>
>> Homosexuality should not excite your thoughts in the context of our public
>> life.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> LJDarbo
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Thu, 4/3/10, bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The first recorded Lesbian marriage in Mangambougou, Mali. I
>> say happy gammy!
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Thursday, 4 March, 2010, 7:33
>>
>> LJD,
>>
>> Thanks for succintly sharing your position on this contentious issue.
>> While respecting your perspective on homosexuality, I beg to permanently
>> differ with you on it.
>>
>> Highest regards
>>
>> Bailo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Wed, 3/3/10, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The first recorded Lesbian marriage in Mangambougou, Mali. I
>> say happy gammy!
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wednesday, 3 March, 2010, 18:04
>>
>>
>> *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom
>> of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
>> nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor
>> covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will
>> inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Co 6:9-10)*
>>
>>
>>
>> Bailo
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your thoughts.
>>
>> Your "religious and cultural convictions as a Moslem" are not in doubt,
>> and I applaud your faith in the context of the Islamic religion.
>>
>> As to "shunning" the "abomination" that, in your view, is homosexuality, I
>> concede you share that perspective with "millions of peoples (Jews,
>> Christians, Bahaians, Hindus, Rastafarians, Atheists, etc) from all over the
>> world".
>>
>> Referring to your original reaction therefore, there appears to be some
>> contextual difficult in your explicit equation of homosexuality with
>> "Western ... moral decadence ...". Here again, I concede the widely held,
>> if erroneous view, that homosexuality is a "Western" phenomenon. Your
>> difficulty is that for practical purposes, Africa is not the natural home of
>> "Jews, Bahaians, or Hindus". In that regard, is it not more plausible to
>> view homosexuality as of universal prevalence, as a human issue? Islamic
>> teaching on the subject appears to support the contention that as a failing,
>> homosexuality is a universal failing.
>>
>> For example, the universalism argument appears to be supported by the
>> fundamental precept that Mohammed (PBUH) is the last of God’s prophets, and
>> Islam, the perfection of religions. A careful analysis of this central
>> doctrinal tenet suggests that notwithstanding its geographic delimitations
>> at birth, the Islamic message is for people the world over. The logic of
>> this position is that pronouncements on homosexuality, like the Quranic
>> message in its totality, addresses people in all corners of the world.
>> Again, a demonstration that as a failing, homosexuality is a universal
>> human failing in so far as it inheres - even if among a tiny number - in
>> societies the world over.
>>
>> On homosexuality, the views of Christianity, and Judaism, are no different
>> to those of Islam, giving us a complete picture of the Abrahamic progeny of
>> religions on this divisive issue. I take no issue with the views *per se*,
>> but if their practical effect is to discriminate against equal stakeholders
>> in Gambian public space, I reject any assault on homosexuality, and, on
>> homosexuals.
>>
>>
>>
>> The foregoing is merely illustrative of the universal prevalence of
>> homosexuality, and not a state of affairs that exemplifies "Western
>> ... moral decadence ...".
>>
>>
>>
>> For me, the thrust of any dispute regarding homosexuality lies in the
>> indefensibility of a differential application of a state’s police power to
>> similarly situated citizens. If YJ is permitted to stroll our beautiful
>> beaches with his female significant other, I see no cogent reason why ATT
>> Jr., and yourself, should be prohibited from holding hands, and kissing, in
>> broad daylight, if you so chose, along Kairaba Avenue.
>>
>>
>>
>> As preliminaries, I remind you that notwithstanding the population's
>> overwhelming adherence to the Islamic faith, The Gambia remains a secular
>> state. In consequence of that basic reality, no citizen must suffer for
>> reasons rooted in religious outrage.
>>
>>
>>
>> Additionally, the Constitution, at section 33, guarantees equal protection
>> under the law.
>>
>>
>>
>> Overall, my query is limited to whether fallible humans, in public life,
>> should sit in moral judgement on matters that are ultimately between a
>> person and God, especially when other vices, clearly more common (see
>> opening quotation), and yet accepted as lifestyle choices, attract similar
>> views from our triology of Abrahamic religions. Would you terminate, or
>> alter, the dynamics of a significant relationship upon discovering a friend,
>> or family member, to be homosexual, if you all along accepted his propensity
>> for adultery and fornication?
>>
>>
>>
>> Please refer to material below on what "The Epistle To The Hebrews" has to
>> say on the punishment for *fornicators*, *adulterers*, and yes, *
>> homosexuals,* and decide whether we are justified in utilising public
>> power to ostracise people for what they do, behind closed doors, and *
>> against* God.
>>
>>
>>
>> Needless to say, I reject all public attempts at policing homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>
>> Our conflicting views on this needlessly divisive issue notwithstanding, I
>> see nothing to diminish my respect and admiration for your courage on key
>> questions of our public life.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> LJDarbo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *"THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS"
>>
>> Fornicators And Adulterers God Will Judge (13:4)
>>
>> INTRODUCTION*
>>
>> 1. In today's society, the honor and sanctity of marriage is under
>> constant attack...
>> a. Divorce is acceptable, made easy through "no-fault" laws
>> b. Adultery is considered normal, faithfulness to one's spouse as
>> unrealistic
>> c. Among religious and political leaders, many say that standards
>> against sexual immorality are antiquated
>>
>> 2. Even in the church, sexual immorality is a major problem evidenced
>> by...
>> a. The high number of divorces among Christians
>> b. The frequent reports sexual failings among preachers, elders, and
>> other Christians
>>
>> 3. This is not to say there are not those who still hold marriage in
>> high esteem...
>> a. Many people still believe sex is for marriage, and marriage is
>> for life
>> b. I've been blessed to have:
>> 1) The example of my wife's grandparents, married 77 years
>> 2) The example of my grandmother, widowed with six children when
>> only 30 years old, remaining single for over fifty years
>> 3) Parents and in-laws who both were married over 50 years each
>> 4) Three brothers, who along with myself are still married to our
>> first wives
>>
>> 4. In truth, our culture today is not that much different from the
>> society of the first century...
>> a. Where divorce and remarriage was rampant (women were known to
>> date events by their husbands; e.g., "Yes, that happened during
>> husband #5.")
>> b. Fornication was acceptable, adultery barely frowned upon
>>
>> 5. But Christianity offers a true contrast of standards regarding
>> morality...
>> a. Through clear and unequivocal teaching - *1 Co 6:9-10; Ga 5:19-21;
>> Ep 5:3-5*
>> b. The same sort of teaching is needed today, which is why we need
>> to carefully heed the text of today's lesson:
>>
>> *"Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but
>> fornicators and adulterers God will judge." (He 13:4)*
>>
>> 6. The verb "is" is not in the Greek, leading some to translate the
>> first phrase as:
>> a. "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage
>> bed be undefiled;" (NASV)
>> b. "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept
>> pure" (NIV),
>>
>> [Why should we honor marriage, and keep the "marriage bed" (a euphemism
>> for marital relations) pure? Because God will judge those who violate
>> it!
>>
>> To see how, let's first define the terms used in the last half of this
>> verse...]
>>
>> *I. DEFINITION OF TERMS*
>>
>> *A. "FORNICATORS"...*
>> 1. The Greek word is *pornos* {por'-nos}, from which we get
>> "pornography"
>> 2. It is a general word for unlawful and immoral sexual
>> relationships (Barclay)
>> 3. It includes any kind sex outside of marriage: pre-marital,
>> extra-marital (adultery), homosexual, etc.
>>
>> *B. "ADULTERERS"...*
>> 1. The Greek word is *moichos* {moy-khos'}
>> 2. It means to have unlawful intercourse with another's wife or
>> husband (Thayer)
>> a. This may be while they are still married...
>> b. Or even AFTER they are divorced if not for the right reason
>> - cf. *Mt 5:32; 19:9*
>> 3 So a person can be guilty of adultery either:
>> a. By having relations with another's spouse
>> b. By marrying someone who either:
>> 1) Did not put their first spouse away for fornication
>> 2) Or was put away by their spouse for ANY reason
>>
>> *C. "GOD"...*
>> 1. The Supreme Being, eternal and holy - *Re 4:8*
>> 2. Omniscient and Omnipresent - *Ps 139:1-12*
>> 3. Loving, yet just - cf. *Jn 3:16; He 10:30-31; 12:29*
>>
>> *D. "WILL JUDGE"...*
>> 1. The Greek word is *krino* {kree'-no}
>> 2. "the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) penalty
>> on one" (Thayer)
>>
>> [Marriage should be held in honor, because the Bible makes it clear
>> that God will condemn and somehow inflict penalty on those who are
>> fornicators and adulterers who do not repent!
>>
>> But why will God judge fornicators and adulterers?]
>>
>> *II. WHY GOD WILL JUDGE FORNICATORS AND ADULTERERS*
>>
>> *A. BECAUSE THEY DESTROY THE LIVES OF OTHERS...*
>> 1. They destroy marriages
>> a. Either their own, by their infidelity (trust is often
>> destroyed)
>> b. Or others, by committing adultery with another's spouse
>> c. Sexual immorality is a major cause of divorce, which God
>> hates - *Mal 2:16*
>> 2. They destroy families
>> a. Where divorce occurs, families are shattered
>> b. The children usually suffer the most, often with severe
>> emotional problems throughout their lives
>> c. Jesus warned about despising the needs of children - *Mt 18:
>> 5-7,10-11,14*
>> 3. They destroy friendships
>> a. Read carefully *Pro 6:30-35*
>> b. It is difficult, if not impossible, to restore good
>> friendships after one has violated another's spouse
>>
>> *B. BECAUSE THEY DESTROY THEIR OWN LIVES...*
>> 1. Read carefully *Pro 5:1-14*
>> a. You lose your honor (your reputation is destroyed)
>> b. You lose your wealth (ever hear of alimony?)
>> c. You lose your health (via STDs, perhaps even AIDS)
>> 2. Adultery and fornication is indeed a sin against your own body
>> - cf. *1 Co 6:18*
>> a. There is emotional damage (wracking guilt)
>> b. There is social damage (ostracized by others)
>> c. There is physical damage (venereal disease)
>>
>> *C. BECAUSE THOSE WHO ARE CHRISTIANS ARE ESPECIALLY GUILTY...*
>> 1. They have taken members of the body of Christ and made them
>> members of a harlot - *1 Co 6:15-16*
>> 2. They have taken their body, a temple of the Holy Spirit, and
>> given it to a child of the devil - *1 Co 6:19-20*
>> 3. As Christians, who have been...
>> a. Made in the image of God
>> b. Redeemed by the blood of Jesus
>> c. Made a temple of the Holy Spirit
>> ...they have allowed their lusts to bring them as low as
>> animals!
>>
>> [When God's HIGHEST CREATION, because of purely selfish reasons,
>> destroys marriages, families, friendship, even their own selves, we can
>> understand why God WILL JUDGE such, and why Paul wrote what he did to
>> the Corinthians:
>>
>> *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom
>> of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
>> nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor
>> covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will
>> inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Co 6:9-10)*
>>
>> But HOW will God judge fornicators and adulterers?]
>>
>> *III. HOW GOD WILL JUDGE FORNICATORS AND ADULTERERS*
>>
>> *A. HE WILL JUDGE IN THE FUTURE...*
>> 1. They will not inherit the kingdom of God - *1 Co 6:9-10; Ep 5:
>> 5-7*
>> 2. They will suffer eternal torment - *Re 21:8*
>>
>> *B. BUT HE ALSO JUDGES IN THE PRESENT...*
>> 1. They become God's enemies - cf. *Ja 4:4*
>> a. While this passage likely speaks of spiritual adultery, it
>> would apply to literal adultery as well
>> b. Adulterers are estranged of God's fellowship, care and love
>> c. True peace and joy cannot be theirs
>> 2. They receive in their own bodies what they rightfully deserve
>> - cf. *Ro 1:24-27*
>> a. Those who engage in such immorality do indeed "receive in
>> themselves the penalty of their error" (e.g., syphilis,
>> gonorrhea, herpes, AIDS)
>> b. But such is only a FORETASTE of the torment fornicators and
>> adulterers will receive, if they do not repent!
>>
>> *CONCLUSION*
>>
>> 1. There are many good reasons to honor marriage and keep the "marriage
>> bed" undefiled...
>> a. The bond between a man and a woman whose relationship is built
>> upon trust and love
>> b. The joy, peace, and love that children in a strong family enjoy,
>> and deserve
>> c. The value of strong families in shaping our communities in which
>> we live
>>
>> 2. But we have focused on God's judgment on those who destroy this
>> important fabric of our society, and how it gives new meaning to the
>> phrase *"be sure your sin will find you out"* (*Num 32:23*)
>> a. It is almost impossible to keep immorality secret
>> 1) Physical infirmities will more than likely bring it to the
>> surface eventually
>> 2) Or loose lips will!
>> b. Even if one succeeds in hiding their immorality in this life, not
>> so in the life to come!
>>
>> 3. To close on a more positive note, let's offer some hope for those
>> who have been guilty of adultery and fornication...
>> a. You may not be able to escape the physical consequences of your
>> actions
>> b. But you can be forgiven, and escape the eternal consequences!
>>
>> As we consider once again what Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, a
>> city known for it loose morals...
>>
>> *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom
>> of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
>> nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor
>> covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will
>> inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Co 6:9-10)*
>>
>> We now notice the next verse...
>>
>> *"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were
>> sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus
>> and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Co 6:11)*
>>
>> The gospel of Christ promises wonderful blessings to all sinners who
>> will come to Jesus in faith and obedience!
>>
>> Have you been "washed", "sanctified", and "justified" in the name of
>> the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God? (*Ac 2:38; 22:16; Ti 3:5*)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 2/3/10, bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The first recorded Lesbian marriage in Mangambougou, Mali. I
>> say happy gammy!
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Tuesday, 2 March, 2010, 16:22
>>
>> LJD,
>>
>>
>>
>> Your usual gentlemanly approach of discussing issues of interest to you is
>> inspiring.
>>
>>
>>
>> Before answering the question that you posed me, I would like to state
>> that my position on homosexuality is foremost guided by my religious and
>> cultural convictions as a Moslem. As such, I believe that homosexuality is
>> an abomination to be shunned and not to be encouraged. However, I also
>> believe that the type of sexual activities that consenting adults engage in
>> within the confines of their bedrooms or private domains should not fall
>> within the purview of any person or authority. What ought to concern someone
>> else is what is practiced or displayed in the public arena.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am please to have similar sentiments on this issue with hundreds of
>> millions of peoples (Jews, Christians, Bahaians, Hindus, Rastafarians,
>> Atheists, etc) from all over the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now regarding your question, I would firmly discourage any local or
>> external attempt towards influencing Gambian laws to have homosexuality or
>> same-sex marriage recognised as perfectly legal. I do not however think that
>> anyone found guilty of such a vice should be ‘beheaded’. Re-orientation in a
>> correctional facility might be the best solution.
>>
>>
>>
>> In conclusion, I do not support the legalisation of same sex marriages or
>> homosexuality from a moral, cultural and natural perspective.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bailo
>>
>> --- On *Mon, 1/3/10, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The first recorded Lesbian marriage in Mangambougou, Mali. I
>> say happy gammy!
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Monday, 1 March, 2010, 1:44
>>
>> Bailo
>>
>> Assuming your position is accepted, what manner of conversation would you
>> recommend between The Republic of The Gambia, and its homosexual community?
>>
>> I am proceeding on the basis that like in the Malian example, some members
>> of homosexual Gambia may insist on living with their significant others in a
>> marriage, or in relationships akin to a marriage.
>>
>> Is your concern, and, or rejection of homosexuality restricted to moral
>> condemnation, or do you consider it proper for the law to punitively
>> intervene?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> LJDarbo
>>
>>
>>
>> Bailo
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your thoughts.
>>
>> Your "religious and cultural convictions as a Moslem" are not in doubt,
>> and I applaud your faith in the context of the Islamic religion.
>>
>> As to "shunning" the "abomination" that, in your view, is homosexuality, I
>> concede you share that perspective with "millions of peoples (Jews,
>> Christians, Bahaians, Hindus, Rastafarians, Atheists, etc) from all over the
>> world".
>>
>> Referring to your original reaction therefore, there appears to be some
>> contextual difficult in your explicit equation of homosexuality with
>> "Western ... moral decadence ...". Here again, I concede the widely held,
>> if erroneous view, that homosexuality is a "Western" phenomenon. Your
>> difficulty is that for practical purposes, Africa is not the natural home of
>> "Jews, Bahaians, or Hindus". In that regard, is it not more plausible to
>> view homosexuality as of universal prevalence, as a human issue? Islamic
>> teaching on the subject appears to support the contention that as a failing,
>> homosexuality is a universal failing.
>>
>> For example, the universalism argument appears to be supported by the
>> fundamental precept that Mohammed (PBUH) is the last of God’s prophets, and
>> Islam, the perfection of religions. A careful analysis of this central
>> doctrinal tenet suggests that notwithstanding its geographic delimitations
>> at birth, the Islamic message is for people the world over. The logic of
>> this position is that pronouncements on homosexuality, like the Quranic
>> message in its totality, addresses people in all corners of the world.
>> Again, a demonstration that as a failing, homosexuality is a universal
>> human failing in so far as it inheres - even if among a tiny number - in
>> societies the world over.
>>
>> On homosexuality, the views of Christianity, and Judaism, are no different
>> to those of Islam, giving us a complete picture of the Abrahamic progeny of
>> religions on this divisive issue. I take no issue with the views *per se*,
>> but if their practical effect is to discriminate against equal stakeholders
>> in Gambian public space, I reject any assault on homosexuality, and, on
>> homosexuals.
>>
>>
>>
>> The foregoing is merely illustrative of the universal prevalence of
>> homosexuality, and not a state of affairs that exemplifies "Western
>> ... moral decadence ...".
>>
>>
>>
>> For me, the thrust of any dispute regarding homosexuality lies in the
>> indefensibility of a differential application of a state’s police power to
>> similarly situated citizens. If YJ is permitted to stroll our beautiful
>> beaches with his female significant other, I see no cogent reason why ATT
>> Jr., and yourself, should be prohibited from holding hands, and kissing, in
>> broad daylight, if you so chose, along Kairaba Avenue.
>>
>>
>>
>> As preliminaries, I remind you that notwithstanding the population's
>> overwhelming adherence to the Islamic faith, The Gambia remains a secular
>> state. In consequence of that basic reality, no citizen must suffer for
>> reasons rooted in religious outrage.
>>
>>
>>
>> Additionally, the Constitution, at section 33, guarantees equal protection
>> under the law.
>>
>>
>>
>> Overall, my query is limited to whether fallible humans, in public life,
>> should sit in moral judgement on matters that are ultimately between a
>> person and God, especially when other vices, clearly more common (see
>> opening quotation), and yet accepted as lifestyle choices, attract similar
>> views from our triology of Abrahamic religions. Would you terminate, or
>> alter, the dynamics of a significant relationship upon discovering a friend,
>> or family member, to be homosexual, if you all along accepted his propensity
>> for adultery and fornication?
>>
>>
>>
>> Please refer to material below on what "The Epistle To The Hebrews" has to
>> say on the punishment for *fornicators*, *adulterers*, and yes, *
>> homosexuals,* and decide whether we are justified in utilising public
>> power to ostracise people for what they do, behind closed doors, and *
>> against* God.
>>
>>
>>
>> Needless to say, I reject all public attempts at policing homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>
>> Our conflicting views on this needlessly divisive issue notwithstanding, I
>> see nothing to diminish my respect and admiration for your courage on key
>> questions of our public life.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> LJDarbo
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sun, 28/2/10, bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: bailo jallow <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The first recorded Lesbian marriage in Mangambougou, Mali. I
>> say happy gammy!
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Sunday, 28 February, 2010, 16:53
>>
>>
>>
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