Embellishment .....(thank God ) the same way corbelling is on a chimney ; and the grander it is the grander you are for putting it up there . The Elgin marbles of Phidias (? ) whose story would of have no where to play without it ; and the Greek revival or late empire terra cotta would of had no where to step out and anchor back into to give us the heavy decorative brackets and entablatures of egg and dart ;lambs tounge ; and picture frame mouldings of bull nose and cymrecta.
In other words on some level it inspires us and we are ......the richer for creating a world with it .... than a world without it..... xoxo PY
PS /If there is still confusion I think much of this can be explained in a tour of Late Empire English Pubs
....Im sure after about the third pub it will all make perfect sence
-----Original Message-----
From: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]>
To: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 2:00 am
Subject: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS Digest - 7 Feb 2014 to 23 Feb 2014 (#2014-13)
There are 10 messages totaling 1993 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. What, exactly, is a cornice for? (10)
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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 15:37:27 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
On your typical 15 story apartment house of the 1920s, what is its
function? It is said by some that it is meant to protect the upper wall from
wetting too much - but nobody put cornices on the rear facades. And I cannot
find any remark on what it does in the manuals and ads of cornice makers.
Plus, some cornices are very deep, some are very shallow.
The possibility has been raised that the parapets behind cornices "have to
be there" because fire in a top floor will jump over the top edge onto the
roof. But nobody put parapets on the rear elevations of brownstones and
tenements - and anyway, if the top floor apartment is fully engaged, then
the roof is gone, too.
So ... what does a cornice do?
And if it does do something, what about all those buildings without
cornices, not just modern buildings, even masonry, but the many factories,
warehouses and even office buildings (examine the 1930 270 Broadway) of the
1880s-1930s+ - why haven't they fallen down?
Christopher
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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 22:20:33 +0000
From: David West <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
Chris
1. I suspect the original function of cornices was to protect the walls
from being wet.
2. The cornice became a characteristic element of style (or form).
3. I think you need to look at the evolution of architectural styles to
see where projecting horizontal courses, especially cornices, started to
disappear from the design.
4. I suspect that the lack of cornices to the side and rear walls is more
a reflection of cost-savings arising from buildings no longer being seen 'in the
round', and so the differentiation between public (street) face and private
(side and rear) faces meant that cornices (and other decoration) was left off.
5. It is my opinion that buildings without cornices tend to suffer greater
deterioration of the masonry and walling in the upper portions of the walls;
particularly problems with dampness, and erosion of mortar. That said, poorly
constructed or maintained cornices can lead to their own share of deterioration
in the upper portions of walls.
Not sure if my Sunday morning blatherings (pre-coffee) actually help answer your
question.
Cheers
David
David West
Executive Director
[cid:ics_25yrs-20mm_h8a548b]
internationalconservationservices
Sydney
53 Victoria Avenue
Chatswood
NSW 2067
Australia
t +61 (2) 9417 3311
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From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, 23 February 2014 7:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [BP] What, exactly, is a cornice for?
On your typical 15 story apartment house of the 1920s, what is its function? It
is said by some that it is meant to protect the upper wall from wetting too much
- but nobody put cornices on the rear facades. And I cannot find any remark on
what it does in the manuals and ads of cornice makers. Plus, some cornices
are very deep, some are very shallow.
The possibility has been raised that the parapets behind cornices "have to be
there" because fire in a top floor will jump over the top edge onto the roof.
But nobody put parapets on the rear elevations of brownstones and tenements -
and anyway, if the top floor apartment is fully engaged, then the roof is gone,
too.
So ... what does a cornice do?
And if it does do something, what about all those buildings without cornices,
not just modern buildings, even masonry, but the many factories, warehouses and
even office buildings (examine the 1930 270 Broadway) of the 1880s-1930s+ - why
haven't they fallen down?
Christopher
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 17:45:35 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
In a message dated 2/22/2014 5:20:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
It is my opinion that buildings without cornices tend to suffer greater
deterioration of the masonry and walling in the upper portions of the walls;
particularly problems with dampness, and erosion of mortar. That said,
poorly constructed or maintained cornices can lead to their own share of
deterioration in the upper portions of walls.
Now that does have to be true, Less water, less damage.
But ... is that actually why they were installed? Did architects/owners
say "yup, gotta get a cornice here"? I doubt that - why else would 100% of
buildings lack any cornice whatsoever, not even a little burp, on the
non-street fronts? Same with 19th c rowhouses - big wooden cornice on front,
nothing on back. Then, too, Chrysler, Empire, Cities Service any tall
building - no cornices. Indeed let us state a hypothesis - the cornice
disappears when it is no longer perceptible from the street.
Also, at this time, no discussion whatsoever "oh, golly, that William Van
Alen, didn't put a cornice on the Chrysler, that's gonna cost him!"
Sir, I think you are trying to turn my world ... upside down!
Yrs. Top o' the world.
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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 16:16:44 -0800
From: Ilene Tyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
A few years ago I did a PowerPoint presentation at Michigan's annual conference
on exactly this subject - déjà vu! - and offered these and other ideas. Mostly,
I presented the various building styles that have cornices, showed how they
function and how they fail, and briefly explained what to do to protect and
restore them. Nicely graphic, it was a popular session. All you say is true, I
think. Modern styles omit the cornice, and suffer accordingly, but also have
fewer water issues to contend with as the cornice deteriorates. Some modern
repairs improve upon the original design, mostly in how they are flashed. Not
much more to say now, but thought it worth joining the discussion.
Ilene R. Tyler, FAIA, FAPT, LEED AP
Principal and Director of Preservation
o 734-663-5888
m 734-417-3730
> On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:45 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/22/2014 5:20:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> It is my opinion that buildings without cornices tend to suffer greater
deterioration of the masonry and walling in the upper portions of the walls;
particularly problems with dampness, and erosion of mortar. That said, poorly
constructed or maintained cornices can lead to their own share of deterioration
in the upper portions of walls.
> Now that does have to be true, Less water, less damage.
>
> But ... is that actually why they were installed? Did architects/owners say
"yup, gotta get a cornice here"? I doubt that - why else would 100% of
buildings lack any cornice whatsoever, not even a little burp, on the non-street
fronts? Same with 19th c rowhouses - big wooden cornice on front, nothing on
back. Then, too, Chrysler, Empire, Cities Service any tall building - no
cornices. Indeed let us state a hypothesis - the cornice disappears when it is
no longer perceptible from the street.
>
> Also, at this time, no discussion whatsoever "oh, golly, that William Van
Alen, didn't put a cornice on the Chrysler, that's gonna cost him!"
>
> Sir, I think you are trying to turn my world ... upside down!
>
> Yrs. Top o' the world.
>
> --
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 18:31:20 -0600
From: "Martin C. Tangora" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
Years ago, when one could hardly dream of putting cornices back on distinguished
buildings such as Carson's or the Marquette, a preservationist commented, "The
cornice doesn't pay rent."
On 2/22/2014 6:16 PM, Ilene Tyler wrote:
> A few years ago I did a PowerPoint presentation at Michigan's annual
conference
> on exactly this subject - déjà vu! - and offered these and other ideas.
Mostly,
> I presented the various building styles that have cornices, showed how they
> function and how they fail, and briefly explained what to do to protect and
> restore them. Nicely graphic, it was a popular session. All you say is true, I
> think. Modern styles omit the cornice, and suffer accordingly, but also have
> fewer water issues to contend with as the cornice deteriorates. Some modern
> repairs improve upon the original design, mostly in how they are flashed. Not
> much more to say now, but thought it worth joining the discussion.
>
> Ilene R. Tyler, FAIA, FAPT, LEED AP
> Principal and Director of Preservation
> o 734-663-5888
> m 734-417-3730
>
>
> On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:45 PM, [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 2/22/2014 5:20:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> writes:
>>
>> It is my opinion that buildings without cornices tend to suffer greater
>> deterioration of the masonry and walling in the upper portions of the
>> walls; particularly problems with dampness, and erosion of mortar. That
>> said, poorly constructed or maintained cornices can lead to their own
>> share of deterioration in the upper portions of walls.
>>
>> Now that does have to be true, Less water, less damage.
>> But ... is that actually why they were installed? Did architects/owners say
>> "yup, gotta get a cornice here"? I doubt that - why else would 100% of
>> buildings lack any cornice whatsoever, not even a little burp, on the
>> non-street fronts? Same with 19th c rowhouses - big wooden cornice on
front,
>> nothing on back. Then, too, Chrysler, Empire, Cities Service any tall
>> building - no cornices. Indeed let us state a hypothesis - the cornice
>> disappears when it is no longer perceptible from the street.
>> Also, at this time, no discussion whatsoever "oh, golly, that William Van
>> Alen, didn't put a cornice on the Chrysler, that's gonna cost him!"
>> Sir, I think you are trying to turn my world ... upside down!
>> Yrs. Top o' the world.
>>
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>>
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or
>> to change your settings, go to:
>> http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html
>
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tangora (at) uic.edu
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 19:32:04 -0500
From: Ken Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
In my experience it is rare to find a parapet behind a cornice. The fire
jump theory holds no water for me.
My conjecture is that cornices may have started with a rational purpose,
either by moderate evidence or a desire for control of water flow, but that
idea was probably driven by poor science, and in time their purpose became
primarily an ornamental design element that was desired and expected by
those who paid for the construction.
On the Cable Building (Houston & Broadway, Manhattan) the ornamental copper
cornice is large enough to walk in, as I have done in the past. The expense
of such a large cornice I believe was driven by a similar desire to impress
the world, even as now all the weirdly shaped buildings that are going up
are intended to do. Why do weirdly shaped buildings not have cornices?
Many cornices on their tops are at the front leading edge higher than the
main area of the roof and slant down in a higher pitch than the main roof.
This I believe is either to more rapidly divert water that lands on the
roof, or to somehow reduce issues of snow load on a projecting or
cantilevered structural element.
Cornices are related to water tables, which are horizontal projections at
lower intermediate areas of the field of the facade. The issue with
cornices and water tables on masonry facades is not distant from the
condition that occurs when a rain leader is defective and leaks at the top
and all of the mortar joints erode away, if not the surface of the masonry
itself.
Which brings up another reason for a cornice which is that if it is the
housing of a gutter then it makes sense, from simplicity of construction,
that it project out from the building so that the leader runs straight up
the facade and into the bottom of the gutter. This is a configuration that
would be fairly straightforward for a wood structure and adapted with
variation to a masonry one.
I believe the main reason for not having cornices on the sides of buildings
has to do with property lines. One is not without permission allowed to
build above the line of another's property.
A reason for not having a cornice at the rear of the building is that, yes,
it is less prominent to view of the public, but also that is where
generally, particularly on townhouses, the entire roof is pitched to send
the water. Often this results in a corbelling of a course or two of brick
with a metal gutter set atop, the projection of brickwork needed in order
to establish the straight line of the leader as it intersects into the
bottom of the gutter. In essence this would be a non-decorative cornice at
the rear of the building. Though I doubt very many would think to ever
refer to it as such.
As to the demise of cornices and why there may not be much specifically
said about them in the historic record the changes in the design paradigm
(form follows function and a tendency toward modernist minimalism) along
with technological changes in materials production, means of distribution,
the maturation of structural engineering as a practice and advances in
construction logistics provided such an overwhelming radical shift that
cornices were just a small issue in a much larger social conversation.
The modern buildings you mention, such as Chrysler & Empire etc. have water
diversion pathways that are internal to the building.
That is my $.02.
][<en
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 22:39:14 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
In a message dated 2/22/2014 7:31:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Years ago, when one could hardly dream of putting cornices back on
distinguished
buildings such as Carson's or the Marquette, a preservationist commented,
"The
cornice doesn't pay rent."
That is an excellent related question. All those people who rented in
white brick buildings in the 1960s - they didn't care a whit for what their
building looked like - that's just the way it was. In the 1910s, did a
building with a BSC (Big Swingin' Cornice) rent better? In the 1900s, 10s,
20s, there were all kinds of fancy buildings - but no evidence that the
fanciness brought in extra money.
c
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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 21:57:22 -0800
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
Would love to see Irene's slide show. While there may be an ancient history of
the cornice for weather control in moist climates or in places such as Greece
with enough wealth to play with "beauty", surely the urban versions from the
last century or two have more to do with the human art of perception and
persuasion.
The absolutely brilliant book "Facades" by Bill Cunningham makes a powerful
point about the linked relationship in any era between contemporary
architectural style and clothing style. For the grand era of urban cornices in
NYC, look at photos of the people on the streets. Everyone wore a hat, usually
with a brim, to top off their persona.
"Facades" traces two hundred years of style with a photo for a style on each
page. It was photographed using examples in NYC with a single model being the
human throughout. She is stunning as she portrays and illuminates the clothing
and architectural styles of the passing decades.
The theory really holds up. In modern times, think the appearance of the Swatch
Watch quickly followed by the multi-patterned sports jackets with different
fabrics on pockets and bisected coloring of sleeves, all shockingly new and
coincident with the rise of Post Modern collaging of building facades.
Cornice = Hat = Appearance for communication and inspiration. Rain and weather
will be dealt with in any structure as totally secondary topics of necessity.
Form Before Function got all mixed up and lost during the World Wars, and our
post-war architectural professors didn't learn about it so couldn't teach it.
We usually learned about Form Follows Function without also learning about or
respecting the other approach.
That is not to say that cornices do not protect what is below them from a
certain amount of weather, but that really they are now more like our eyebrows
in function. They do a certain amount of protective work for the eyes and
probably evolved first for that purpose, but are now much more important as
communicators.
cp in bc
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 22:47:51 -0800
From: Ilene Tyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
I would love to see this book, Cuyler. I've heard of it but never seen it.
Connecting hats to cornices is an intriguing concept would like to see
illustrated. (Note, though, that my name has no "r" in it...and I'm just leaning
on you to remember it's an "l" in Ilene. Thanks.)
Ilene R. Tyler, FAIA, FAPT, LEED AP
Principal and Director of Preservation
o 734-663-5888
m 734-417-3730
> On Feb 22, 2014, at 9:57 PM, Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Would love to see Irene's slide show. While there may be an ancient history
of the cornice for weather control in moist climates or in places such as Greece
with enough wealth to play with "beauty", surely the urban versions from the
last century or two have more to do with the human art of perception and
persuasion.
>
> The absolutely brilliant book "Facades" by Bill Cunningham makes a powerful
point about the linked relationship in any era between contemporary
architectural style and clothing style. For the grand era of urban cornices in
NYC, look at photos of the people on the streets. Everyone wore a hat, usually
with a brim, to top off their persona.
>
> "Facades" traces two hundred years of style with a photo for a style on each
page. It was photographed using examples in NYC with a single model being the
human throughout. She is stunning as she portrays and illuminates the clothing
and architectural styles of the passing decades.
>
> The theory really holds up. In modern times, think the appearance of the
Swatch Watch quickly followed by the multi-patterned sports jackets with
different fabrics on pockets and bisected coloring of sleeves, all shockingly
new and coincident with the rise of Post Modern collaging of building facades.
>
> Cornice = Hat = Appearance for communication and inspiration. Rain and
weather will be dealt with in any structure as totally secondary topics of
necessity. Form Before Function got all mixed up and lost during the World
Wars, and our post-war architectural professors didn't learn about it so
couldn't teach it. We usually learned about Form Follows Function without also
learning about or respecting the other approach.
>
> That is not to say that cornices do not protect what is below them from a
certain amount of weather, but that really they are now more like our eyebrows
in function. They do a certain amount of protective work for the eyes and
probably evolved first for that purpose, but are now much more important as
communicators.
>
> cp in bc
>
>
> --
> **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service**
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 23:24:32 -0800
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What, exactly, is a cornice for?
Ilene, thanks for pointing out the mixed letter thing. After a bout of
detached retinas in both eyes last year, I now have one functional reading eye
with a small gap sort of near the centre of the field of vision that causes
individual letters to disappear from words, depending on exactly where the focus
happens to be. Makes for some really funny messages on signs and I found I had
to be careful not to laugh too much while walking through town so I wouldn't be
thought of as one of the troublesome ones. In reviewing your note and name, I
see the large R in there too, and think that the mind tweaked it into the "l"
gap during quick reading and quick typing. Sorry for the error.
Two of the striking elements linking clothing style and architecture is that of
proportion of elements and the placement of ornament. Victorian homes stand
beautifully beside Victorian dresses in those terms with a typical house
proportioned just like a well dressed woman.
I once curated a museum exhibit about the progression of clothing style from
1800 to 2000. In researching about the topic, I came across the statement in a
clothing history book that one could not understand the clothing style of any
period unless one understood the architectural style of that period. So, I got
out some books about the history of architectural style, and in one was a
comment that one could not understand the building style of any period unless
one understood the clothing style of the period.
cp in bc
----- Original Message -----
From: Ilene Tyler
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [BP] What, exactly, is a cornice for?
I would love to see this book, Cuyler. I've heard of it but never seen it.
Connecting hats to cornices is an intriguing concept would like to see
illustrated. (Note, though, that my name has no "r" in it...and I'm just leaning
on you to remember it's an "l" in Ilene. Thanks.)
Ilene R. Tyler, FAIA, FAPT, LEED AP
Principal and Director of Preservation
o 734-663-5888
m 734-417-3730
On Feb 22, 2014, at 9:57 PM, Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Would love to see Irene's slide show. While there may be an ancient
history of the cornice for weather control in moist climates or in places such
as Greece with enough wealth to play with "beauty", surely the urban versions
from the last century or two have more to do with the human art of perception
and persuasion.
The absolutely brilliant book "Facades" by Bill Cunningham makes a powerful
point about the linked relationship in any era between contemporary
architectural style and clothing style. For the grand era of urban cornices in
NYC, look at photos of the people on the streets. Everyone wore a hat, usually
with a brim, to top off their persona.
"Facades" traces two hundred years of style with a photo for a style on each
page. It was photographed using examples in NYC with a single model being the
human throughout. She is stunning as she portrays and illuminates the clothing
and architectural styles of the passing decades.
The theory really holds up. In modern times, think the appearance of the
Swatch Watch quickly followed by the multi-patterned sports jackets with
different fabrics on pockets and bisected coloring of sleeves, all shockingly
new and coincident with the rise of Post Modern collaging of building facades.
Cornice = Hat = Appearance for communication and inspiration. Rain and
weather will be dealt with in any structure as totally secondary topics of
necessity. Form Before Function got all mixed up and lost during the World
Wars, and our post-war architectural professors didn't learn about it so
couldn't teach it. We usually learned about Form Follows Function without also
learning about or respecting the other approach.
That is not to say that cornices do not protect what is below them from a
certain amount of weather, but that really they are now more like our eyebrows
in function. They do a certain amount of protective work for the eyes and
probably evolved first for that purpose, but are now much more important as
communicators.
cp in bc
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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4335 / Virus Database: 3705/7117 - Release Date: 02/22/14
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End of BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS Digest - 7 Feb 2014 to 23 Feb 2014 (#2014-13)
************************************************************************
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