Haruiner,
As usual, you've woken up and dittoing has began. Your stupid friend
moonlighting as the political analyst changed a strictly legal discussion to
comparing apples and oranges. There is nothing comparable between Kagame
and a rogue like Jammeh.
Tell me about what jungle justice i am running away and what havoc did i
participate in to warrant my coming to live in the west. Persona
delinquencies and inadequacies, what load of BS
I am a man of my own and I am not seeking yours or anyones approval
for anything. Talk of trashy and nonesensical self-delusional importance.
Mboge
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Suntou,
>
> Thank you for your common sense. The problem with some of these folk is
> that they participated in the wrecking of Africa before they fled jungle
> justice or they had buyer's remorse once they settled in their new western
> homes. And they blame their personal delinquencies and inadequacies on the
> west. I say they brush their teeth before they speak to me about Africa or
> Africans. How you change a conversation about law and jurisprudence to a
> defense of kagame is beyond me. kagame's person or character was not in
> question......however you feel about the man. Extradition requests are
> between Judicial branches and nations. Not between Presidents or other
> idiots.
>
> Thank you again for your marked sobrieties Suntou.
>
> Haruna.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: suntou touray <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:17 am
> Subject: Re: Fw: BBC E-mail: Rwanda accused win UK court case - PRECEDENT
> FOR FORMER HIGH COURT JUDGE SAFIATOU NJIE?
>
> The gentle man who wishes to make some us look like uncaring Africans,
> hence not qualify in advocating anything African should take a good at
> himself and his place of domicile. Many a times we read and hear our
> Pan-Africanist brothers resident in Europe and America for decades lecturing
> us about Euro-American this and that on Africans.. How self-serving these
> brothers are.
>
> If you wish to take the moral high ground on Africa, then do the decent
> thing and parachute to the West, East, South or Central Africa, then try
> screaming from the rooftop there, hopefully people will pay attention to the
> nonsensical out pouring of cheap emotion. Some of this So call
> Pan-Africanist hardly ever venture into Africa, yet they feel singing
> Pan-Africa enough in making words relevant, give us a break.
> The economist Magazine has nothing to lose or gain in the articles some of
> its commentators write about Africa. Can we for once see things in their
> right context instead fancying around hanging onto our own baggage of
> partisan politics. If anyone is educated in the west, you must without a
> question read books, be lectured by western professors and enjoy the western
> way of live. What moral ground do you have to see others as less of an
> African than you are? Below is the Economist Magazine's article on Kegame
> and Rwanda. In fact the article acknowledge the level of financial
> discipline the government of Kegame is instituting, yet the other facts
> cannot be left unspoken about because one is doing something’s right and
> other major wrongs. We should delineate cheap emotion from serious issues
>
>
>
> http://www.economist.com/world/middle-east/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15622375
>
> Progress and repression in Rwanda
> Divisionists beware President Paul Kagame has improved people’s lives at
> the expense of freedom
> Mar 4th 2010 | NAIROBI | From *The Economist* print edition
> Kagame, progressive and repressive
> THE government of Rwanda is doing a lot of things right. It is pretty open
> in its handling of aid money. Most foreign governments and charities are so
> impressed by its detailed plans and apparent lack of corruption that they
> are funnelling more of their aid directly through Rwanda’s government.
> President Paul Kagame says he expects direct budget support to rise by a
> quarter this year, to $519m.
> The country has recovered valiantly from its year zero in 1994, when
> 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus were slaughtered. Its centralised state is
> leading the way in economic and technological reform in the region. It is
> improving the country’s infrastructure, education and farming, and seeks to
> preserve its ecology. It pushes equality for women, who comprise half the
> government and parliament.
> On the diplomatic front, Mr Kagame has been equally successful. He has sent
> troops to help keep the peace in Sudan’s Darfur province and elsewhere. He
> has stood up to mighty France, blaming it, as the region’s then most
> influential Western power, for failing to prevent the genocide. And last
> month the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, came to Rwanda and offered
> something close to an apology. France, he said, had committed “grave errors
> of judgment” before, during, and after the genocide. Questions linger about
> the role of French special forces during the killing, as well as the fate of
> Hutus living in France whom Rwanda wants extradited on suspicion of
> involvement in the genocide.
> France, for its part, has not dropped charges against some members of Mr
> Kagame’s government who are alleged to have ordered the shooting down of a
> French aircraft carrying Rwanda’s then president, Juvénal Habyarimana, a
> Hutu; that action triggered the genocide. Yet both countries now appear more
> at ease with each other. Days after Mr Sarkozy’s visit, Mr Habyarimana’s
> widow, Agathe, was arrested near Paris (and then freed on bail) for
> questioning over her alleged role in the genocide. French businessmen came
> in Mr Sarkozy’s slipstream, eyeing minerals and timber in neighbouring
> Congo, for which Rwanda is a conduit. “There is no doubt this is a
> reconciliation,” says a Rwandan government figure.
> Yet awkward question-marks hang over Mr Kagame and his ruling Rwandan
> Patriotic Front. The president’s detractors say his party has not owned up
> to killing thousands of civilians immediately after the genocide or to
> responsibility for causing much bloodshed in Congo, which it invaded in
> order to hunt down the *génocidaires* who had fled there. The Congolese
> government, it may be noted, has co-operated with the Rwandans in their more
> recent incursions into Congo.
> Mr Kagame and his government are stifling political and press freedom in
> advance of a presidential election due in August. He is almost certain to
> win but evidently he is determined to secure a big majority to implement his
> “one Rwanda” policies. Opposition parties have been forbidden to “use words
> or facts that defame other politicians”. In practice, the government can
> label any criticism against it as “divisionism”, which entitles it to lock
> up the offenders. Members of the opposition say they are spied on and
> bullied.
> It is unclear whether the government will let the Democratic Green Party, a
> feisty new opposition group, be registered. If not, the Greens say they will
> back another lot, the Socialist Party-Imberakuri, which should be able to
> run a presidential candidate. The head of a third opposition party, the
> United Democratic Forces-Inkingi, Victoire Ingabire, says she has been
> vilified since returning from exile in January. The government, she says,
> has encouraged people to assault her, accusing her of being a *génocidaire
> *. This week a former military intelligence chief, Kayumba Nyamwasa, who
> was reported to have joined the Greens, fled Rwanda and is said to be
> claiming asylum in South Africa. The government says he is wanted on
> criminal charges—presumably divisionism.
> End.
> Going back to our own dictators corridors, What is it that his supporter
> are fuming against us about? They are saying, the man is a dictator of
> development and that he is fighting against corruption. He has given women
> more power and rights. His Vice-President is a woman. At some point in his
> government, there were more women in his government as Ministers than the
> previous administration. All that the gentleman is promoting Kegame for,
> Yahya Jammeh was once hail with those same things.
> Should there be any reason for the cubing of civil rights and plurality of
> views?
> Is Kegame himself innocent of pumping tribal issues in politics? In fact,
> Kegame's men in the army including the high ranking female officer play the
> card more than many others. Check their own Google images Mr Gentleman. I
> have seen images of the Rwandan army's latest incursion of Congo, the
> close senior officers bragging about their prejudicial influences. These
> things aren’t as simple as the gentleman is making it out to be.
> Nothing should compromise tolerant co-existence, and the opposition views
> is a key part to ensuring the population is represented at all levels.
> Kegame's propaganda alone shouldn't be listened to at the expense of others.
> He should be commended for lots of things, but he also needs to understand
> that framing words against his opponent is not healthy for the future
> stability of the country. Some of us are less of a Pan-African, however, we
> know the working of a genuine democracy. Advocates of Europeanism live in
> Europe. let our Pan-African folks migrate to Africa, instead of crying wolf
> in western towns and cities.
> Let not your bias of folks make you blind to their views. Stop been haste
> over public issues. Take a deep breath and read the material before jumping
> to conclusion.
> LJ, thanks for your sober and intelligent analysis always. Long may we have
> many non-partisan like you. Speaking the facts regardless of who it come
> from. Saddly, folks here seems to look at names, party afilliation, some
> ignoble little gangs before saying anything tangible. You have shown
> to be above such petty mantra.
> Suntou
> Suntou
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Mboge
>>
>> You are absolutely right that "Four men accused of taking part in the 1994
>> Rwandan genocide win their High Court battle against extradition" was
>> "strictly premised on the significance of the Legal precedence it sets for
>> 'fugitives' claiming to be escaping persecution". Specifically, I was
>> thinking about Justice Safiatou Njie (Justice Njie) and whether The Gambia
>> Government is likely to succeed in having her extradited by the UK.
>>
>> Although her alleged crimes are not political, the whole mechanism of
>> Gambian justice is heavily entangled in political calculations. She is not
>> likely to get a fair trial, and as a requirement of Article 6 of the
>> European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR), now statutorily incorporated
>> into UK law by the Human Rights Act 1998 (HRA 1998), her chance of eluding
>> extradition is looking good.
>>
>> Even as the Rwandan decision is a brilliant exemplification of the rule of
>> law, I have to agree with you that the High Court decision was a difficult
>> one on moral grounds. I am unsure why Rwanda did not seek their extradition
>> for onward delivery to the International Criminal Tribunal Rwanda (ICTR),
>> based in the Tanzanian city of Arusha.
>>
>> For Rwanda, it should not matter where these alleged criminals are
>> prosecuted. The evidence is suggestive of some involvement by all four in
>> the '94 genocide. In that case, common sense would dictate that they be
>> prosecuted for their alleged crimes, and where found legally culpable,
>> adequately punished.
>>
>> Undoubtedly, the political arm of government was keen to have them
>> extradited, but the Judiciary blocked that wish on the explicit command of
>> both European, and UK law.
>> Stated differently, the High Court probably hated the outcome, but there
>> was a clear obligation to implement the law as it is. You are right that
>> under other circumstances, these laws can work quite well for "genuine
>> asylum seekers". This particular decision was nevertheless quite agonising.
>>
>> As to Kagame, I defer to your expertise on the man, and his vision. What
>> he must do, and this sooner than he may prefer, is to create an environment
>> that allows his vision to incrementally mature even as he himself no longer
>> leads Rwanda. No one person can fully develop a country, and in my view,
>> this means that every African leader, and, or, ruler, must come to terms
>> with his/her own mortality. Only then will a mighty continent actualise its
>> great potential by making use of the major part of the talent at its
>> disposal.
>>
>> Many thanks for a fine response, and advocacy.
>>
>> Do you think the Gambia's extradition request regarding Justice Njie
>> should succeed?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> LJDarbo
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sun, 21/3/10, Modou Mboge <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Modou Mboge <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Fw: BBC E-mail: Rwanda accused win UK court case - PRECEDENT
>> FOR FORMER HIGH COURT JUDGE SAFIATOU NJIE?
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010, 17:38
>>
>>
>> LJD,
>>
>> I guess your sharing the judgement on the Rwandans by the High Court of
>> the UK was strictly premised on the significance of the Legal precedence it
>> sets for 'fugitives' claiming to be escaping persecution. I hope it is not
>> presumptuous of me that you had in mind the Gambian female judicial employee
>> currently in the UK apparently running away from Gambian justice *a la
>> Jammeh when you shared the ruling.* I assume that it is no rocket
>> science that this ruling will provide protection for the corrupt criminals,
>> *genocidaires and their apologists* from being brought to justice where
>> it matters *ie* where their alleged crimes were committed.
>>
>> It seems the so-called High Court Judges are more concerned with the human
>> rights of vile *genocidaires* than those genuine asylum seekers whose
>> fear of being killed and tortured in their homeland is consistently ignored
>> and questioned and in some instances ridiculed by Western media pandering
>> to the right-wing politics of the *"other*" coming *to take our jobs and
>> scrounging on our generous welfare systems. *Im no lawyer but i hope
>> this ruling also can be useful to genuine asylum seekers.
>>
>>
>> Reading a response to the article you shared by our *"descerner extraordinaire
>> on this forum" *comparing our criminal outfit headed by a deranged
>> buffoon in the person of SHEPAD Jammeh gave me zits as well as being
>> squirmish for a while.
>>
>> The realities of Gambia and Rwanda are markedly different. Kagame and
>> Jammeh are poles apart. Kagame is a smart and patriotic leader, a
>> visionary engaged in healing a traumatized people, one fighting a good fight
>> in ushering in a new nation based on functioning institutions. The howling
>> on this *divisionism by the Economist *is in my view an
>> irrelevant unworthy distraction. Kagame should take no advise or lecturing
>> from a rabidly anti-African magazine that once ran a feature cover story by
>> Richard Dowden on Africa*: The Hopeless Continent. *It may be true that
>> many an African country is marred by hunger, conflict and strife yet i have
>> no doubt that if anything the African peoples are mostly hopeful and
>> optimistic about the future. This may be sometimes wrongly attributed to
>> fatalism.
>>
>> Of course there still remains a lot to be done in terms of democracy and
>> human rights in Rwanda but one must acknowledge the giant strides already
>> achieved in relation to these ideals. It is work in progress that is being
>> managed very well under extremely difficult circumstances.* Rwanda under
>> Kagame boast one of the most enlightened gender equality legislatures in the
>> world.* And this goes beyond just symbolic balancing of the sexes in
>> terms of representation (given that 33% of the Rwandan Parliament is
>> female) in politics. Women compete and participate in all sectors of Rwanda
>> society. There is evidence of substantive and particapatory democracy in
>> everyday life of the ordinary Rwandan. The economy in Rwanda is booming,
>> civil society is being built and their advocacy left, right and
>> centre permeates in and at all levels of society. Under Kagame's Rwanda a
>> state by all standards that failed, has emerged way ahead of many African
>> countries in terms of health care access to its denizens. There is national
>> health insurance for virtually all Rwandans. With Rwanda now on the right
>> path to development and substantive participatory democracy i join the hoard
>> of admirers wishing the Kagame juggernaut to keep steaming ahead. I do also
>> hope that the juggernaut also destroys and annihilate all the negative
>> forces trying to block it especially those coated in ethnicity. Ethnicity
>> is important but not to the detriment of building a prosperous Rwandan
>> nation that concerns herself with providing peace, prosperity and progress
>> to its people.
>>
>> There exists a genuine concern by those trying to deny the *horrid
>> genocide that took place in 1994.* Politicians such as Victoire Ingabire
>> Umuhoza trying to play on ethnic sentiments must be reigned in. This does
>> not mean that people should be denied the right to associate with the ethnic
>> skirt they want to wear as long as it is not to villify or create
>> schisms between and among their brethren and sisters. Afterall the Tutsi
>> and Hutu are from the same family of Bantu-speaking peoples. But if not
>> for a sad historical constructionism perpetrated by colonialists based
>> on banal concepts such as the *Hamitic Hypothesis , the Tutsi-Hutu *dichotomous
>> relationship might have been avoided*. *I shall not suffer the esteem
>> lot of this forum on the nitty-gritty of this racist hypothesis which helped
>> in the pogroms of the Tutusis in 1959 and the genocide of 1994.
>>
>>
>> We have seen the shenanigans of France and some other northern
>> governments trying to stifle the progress and development of Rwanda since
>> the RPF came into power. I will have Kagame any day as my leader compared
>> to the rogues we have splattered across our wounded continent irresponsibly
>> abusing the noble ideals of democracy and human rights.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mboge
>>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 7:56 AM, suntou touray <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> LJ, reading the economies Magazine edition of last week, i can see
>>> similar tactics in the arena of suppression of opposition views in Rwanda to
>>> that our own mad man. Kegame's government invented a dangerous term *
>>> 'divisionist'.* This term is label against opponents of the government
>>> with the country's sad past. The genocidal past was trigger by tribal
>>> sentiment, hence the divisionist concept.
>>> It is interesting how our guys invent this sinister strategies to
>>> suppress alternative views. Key members of the opposition are regularly
>>> accused of being guilty of genocide, a tack one is unable to free
>>> himself from.
>>> Suntou
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Lamin Darbo <
>>> [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Fri, 19/3/10, LJD <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> >* wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: LJD <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> >
>>>> Subject: BBC E-mail: Rwanda accused win UK court case
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Date: Friday, 19 March, 2010, 0:08
>>>>
>>>> LJD saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
>>>> should see it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** Rwanda accused win UK court case **
>>>> Four men accused of taking part in the 1994 Rwandan genocide win their
>>>> High Court battle against extradition
>>>> < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/uk/7989534.stm >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** BBC Daily E-mail **
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